Session 2909

Overcoming Persecutors: No Fight, No Flight But Stand and Mirror


“Overcoming Persecutors: No Fight, No Flight But Stand and Mirror”
“Supporting Someone Who Wants to Commit Suicide”

Friday, January 22, 2010 (Private/Phone)

Participants: Mary (Michael) and Rose (Quillan)

ELIAS: Good evening!

ROSE: Good afternoon, Elias! (Both laugh) Happy as always.

ELIAS: As always.

ROSE: Yeah, happy as always, talking with you. Aaaah! I've tons of topics.

Okay. I'll start with one which I would like you to talk about, not in big detail but in sufficient detail.

We have one person in the Elias Forum which is afflicted very much, and we two have been talking about helping the other to find their key. This person says that he is at the end of his wits and he wants to commit suicide, and he wants to disengage but is just chicken to do it, actually. You are very familiar with this person. I won't say the name because this session is going public, and for confidential reasons I don't want to say the name. But my question is, I know that this person has had sessions with you, and I would like to know, is there anything that we from the forum can do for this person to support this person?

ELIAS: What you can do to be supportive is to acknowledge, which you are already aware of. In this, it is not a matter of fixing the situation, and it is not a matter of also moving in denial of the situation, as in the example that you and I discussed previously of expression to the other individual that no, they do not actually want to disengage. That is denying what they are expressing.

In this, the manner in which you can be supportive is to hear the other individual and acknowledge them – that what they are expressing is real, that their distress and their desperation is real, and that regardless that there may be other choices that the individual could engage, this is the choice that the individual is fixed upon, and therefore that is the direction that the individual wants to engage. It is a matter of not opposing them and acknowledging their own direction.

This is difficult for most individuals, for you incorporate very strong beliefs and very strong associations that there are certain actions that are inappropriate, that are unacceptable and that you should not engage, and one of them is suicide, that intentionally disengaging from this reality is not an acceptable choice. And you justify that to yourselves by expressing that the individual does not actually genuinely want to do that; that they are confused, or that they merely are not seeing all of their choices and that they actually do not want to disengage.

But in some situations they DO. In some situations, the individual genuinely DOES want to disengage. They merely are fearful, or they are confused, or they do not – or have not – offered themselves the type of information in how to execute the action that would be acceptable to themself, or they have not yet generated an idea of how to successfully generate the action through a method that is acceptable to themself.

And in that, many times, a very significant aspect of obstacles for these individuals is their own fear. They are already perceiving themselves as not being successful in whatever they are doing. Therefore, they already incorporate the perception of doubt in whatever direction they may choose to engage, which creates a situation in which they become fearful and incorporate doubt as to the subject of suicide, for if they are already not being successful, they perceive that there is significant potential that they would not be successful in generating the action of suicide either. And the idea of NOT being successful creates a significant fear, for they do not want to generate MORE discomfort than they are already experiencing; therefore, they want to be successful, but the fear of the possibility that they would not be is in many situations overwhelming.

And even in situations in which they very much trust a particular method of disengaging and perceive that they will definitely be successful if they engage that particular method, they may incorporate other fears which are prompted by questions that are unknowns to them; they are unanswered questions. "If I engage this action, will it be painful? Will it be slow? Will it be quick? Will I feel the disengagement? Will I be considerably uncomfortable in generating that disengagement?"

When the individual is already significantly uncomfortable, any additional discomfort is very fearful to them, is almost unquestionable to them, for they already are experiencing discomfort to an extent they cannot bear.

Therefore, what can you do? How can you be supportive? Acknowledge them. Listen and understand that fear – and even if you do not understand that fear, acknowledge that it is very real and that the individual is expressing in a very real manner. They are not playing a game. They are very serious, they are very uncomfortable, and they very much may actually want to disengage. And, dependent upon the individual, that may be the only option that they see, and another individual offering them other options is not helpful. They do not want other options.

They do not want to listen to other options, for they are set in a direction, and in that, it is no different than an individual that wants to win the lottery and is very intent in that direction, and another individual can approach them and express to them, "You will not win the lottery,” or “You do not actually want to win the lottery." That individual will not be responsive to that type of interaction, for they are set in a direction that they want to win the lottery, and they will pursue that avenue as diligently as they can. In this, they are uninterested in other information that winning the lottery may not actually be what they want. In their perception, that is what they want – just as the individual that wants to commit suicide. They do not want to engage interaction with other individuals expressing to them all of the reasons that they should not engage that action.

ROSE: Okay, and you know, without me naming this individual I have in mind right now of whom I'm talking about, I guess?


ROSE: And what you just said, I would think that you had this person in mind?

ELIAS: Yes, in a manner of speaking.

ROSE: Ja. And what I personally did was on one end say, "Okay, my experience of wanting to commit suicide is in one way really that I want to disengage this situation and want to not really actually get rid of my body but get out of this situation, and if I had had an opportunity to get out of it, that would have been what I would have preferred.” But then I got the response from this person that he has tried everything and it has not worked and actually that really is what he wants, and it comes back to "I want to disengage; listen, listen, I want to disengage."

So what I did was I presented one information that there are coming up worldwide organizations that are supporting suicide, or people who want to suicide, in a way that is not painful and that is respectful and it is accepted by the people around which are providing this opportunity, and I presented this to this person to have one of the answers to the question of “How can I do it without failing and make sure?” (Sighs) That's what I did, and (sighs) I have a feeling that this person could actually get through this and get out of his situation, and sometimes I have the impression that maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Is there anything in addition to what I just said that you would like to maybe directly say to this person even if we don't mention the name?

ELIAS: I will be engaging this individual soon, and I will be addressing to the situation. As to YOUR interaction, I acknowledge you, that in what you chose to share, in what you chose to offer, and how you chose to engage, was quite acceptable and was actually an expression of being supportive, and I acknowledge that.

Being supportive is not always encouraging an individual to engage a particular action that you do not necessarily agree with, but it is acknowledging them and not discouraging them, and this is what you did.

I would also express a validation to you that you are correct: This particular individual does vacillate. At times, that want to disengage is very genuine and very strong, and it is an undercurrent that is ever present with this individual. But there are some time frameworks that the individual has actually accomplished offering himself a slight amount of encouragement and that he does generate some success in moving in other directions. It is not entirely satisfactory to him – yet – for his perception is not enough, and it is very difficult and challenging for him to maintain that and to override that very strong undercurrent of wanting to disengage. And he very easily becomes discouraged and forgets what he has accomplished and slips into the very, very familiar discounting of himself, which is VERY familiar with this individual, and he and I have discussed this at length. And in that, I continue to engage him and will continue to do so to the point in which he chooses whether he will actually engage that action or not.

But in this situation, as in like manner to MANY situations with MANY individuals, the fear of actually engaging that action is very strong, and even with the idea and the ability to generate that action without discomfort, there remains fear and there remains judgment, that as much as he deplores the discomfort, the subject itself of suicide is almost as taboo to him as it is to most individuals. It is a almost as unacceptable to himself as it is to most individuals, which is another factor that other individuals do not necessarily entirely consider when they are interacting with an individual that wants to generate this direction of suicide; that they themselves are not immune to mass beliefs, and they themselves are not necessarily an exception to those beliefs that suicide is not necessarily acceptable, and that creates another aspect of difficulty for them to implement it, which is generally the reason that they want to implement it quickly, for that allows them to not engage much thought.

But, I would express that this is a situation that many, many individuals grapple with and that is difficult for many, many individuals. And for those individuals that are addressing to or interacting with these individuals, it is important that there is not an expression of instructing or opposing or denying them, but genuinely acknowledging the realness of what they are expressing and what they are experiencing.

They know you cannot fix it; they already know you cannot change it. They are expressing in the manner that they are, in their own attempt to connect and to be heard, that they are projecting outward this discomfort and painfulness that they are experiencing. And in that, although they may be asking for a solution, they already are aware that the solution will come from themself and not from another individual. But – I would express, in this situation this individual does incorporate enough information that he does know, that in connecting with other individuals it is possible for him to draw to himself what he wants. Which, in this situation I would be inclined to be acknowledging of you both.

I would be acknowledging of you in your successfulness in being supportive and not instructing and not opposing, and also not denying him, but I would also be acknowledging of him, in his success in drawing another individual to him that has presented him with another suggestion of a method, which is what he is seeking. He has discussed this with myself many times, and I myself have offered several methods, and I would express to him that this, once again, is another success for him, (Rose chuckles) that he was successful in connecting with another individual that did offer another method which was precisely in projecting an energy and attracting an energy that matches it, and that was a success. (Rose chuckles) Therefore I am acknowledging of him also.

ROSE: Good. Change of subject?

ELIAS: Very well.

ROSE: Okay. (Laughs) I have a fun question once again. A friend of mine said that he has discovered that I have a focus as a queen of England, one of the queens. (Laugh) And I said, “Wow, hm?" And now I want to ask you, is this correct or not?

ELIAS: Yes. And I shall encourage you in your treasure hunt.

ROSE: (Laughs) Oh, oh! And the wife of this friend says it is Queen… I don't know the name, but the one which they said it’s the Victorian Age and is named after her. Was it this queen?

ELIAS: That would be Queen Victoria, and no, that would not be a focus of you. But you do participate as an observing essence in that focus, and you also incorporate another focus of you that is a courtesan in that court.

ROSE: (Laughs) Okay. Okay.

I have one topic that is connecting with one we have open and I have one which is personal, and now I am about to decide which one to choose. Um... (sighs) Okay. Let's take the one which is not so personal.

We were talking about "fight or flight" [1], and you said one thing. You said one sentence; I'll read it to you: "…or express some manner that is directed to show the individual how they are wrong – fight energy. Or you may interact with them briefly and avoid them or ignore them – flight energy.” That was the time when I deepened with a question. I want to come back to this specific point. Did you want to continue there and I interrupted you?

ELIAS: No. I would express that you understood the point.

ROSE: Okay. Then I want to deepen the subject, because this is something many people feel. This is also where we ended up the last time. When you are a person which has had the experience already of being exposed and having a traumatic experience of whatever kind, there is one phenomenon coming up very often, which is in the body there is a lot of stress and adrenalin and whatever going on, and there is also maybe an emotional anger when we are talking about an adult, which is able to reflect the situation more (than a child), and there is a lot of anger that the other person is treating oneself this way. This is one aspect, and the other aspect is, what to do with this stress that comes up with this fear in the body?

Okay. It's your turn.

ELIAS: Therefore your question is how to address to the stress of the body consciousness?

ROSE: Yes, and the emotional stress, for you are very angry that the other one is doing that to you. Both: the physical stress and the emotional stress. Okay?

ELIAS: Very well. Now in relation to what we discussed previously in this situation, I expressed that rather than fight or flight it is important for the individual to merely stand – not to engage but to also mirror the energy that is being projected to them. You are recalling that?

ROSE: Yes, I am. And I also know that sometimes that is the tricky part because you are so under stress from previous experiences. And you said to interrupt that you need to redirect yourself and to trust something that you are sure you can trust, like your heartbeat or whatever. But I know that there can be this rush in the body which freezes you, literally, and… ja, it sounds like what you said, that mirror and so, that is easier to do when you have not had this experience before. This is one question which people which have had really traumatic experiences are very interested in, in how to deal with this stress.

ELIAS: In actuality, I would express that it is easier to engage when you HAVE engaged previous experiences. When you HAVEN'T engaged previous experiences, in addition to the fear or the anxiety and the physical expressions, there is an element of surprise, which creates more difficulty in generating the ability to even SLIGHTLY shift your attention to yourself or even to shift your attention into the other individual, for the element of surprise places the individual in a more extreme situation – not that the other individual that is NOT surprised isn't generating an extreme situation.

BUT – let me offer a hypothetical, more simple example. Let us say that you encounter a very large wolf.

Now; in this encounter with the wolf, or even a dog, the animal is approaching you and is aggressive and is snarling and is baring its teeth, and its fur is raised, its head is lowered, and it is approaching you in a mode of attack.

Now; if this is the first encounter that you have generated in this type of situation, in addition to fear there is also an aspect of surprise. The combination of surprise and fear creates a response and a reaction within the body consciousness which actually even triggers a chemical response, or reaction, within the body consciousness in relation to the nervous system. And in that, it automatically prompts you into that association, or that learned behavior, of fight or flight. Remember: this is not instinct, not with humans.

Now; if you HAVE encountered the dog or the wolf previously and it has been aggressive and it has been in the direction of attack, the element of surprise is much less, if at all. You may not actually even incorporate the element of surprise. You KNOW what to expect. You are already familiar, you have already generated an association, which is that assessment of good or bad, and therefore your body consciousness already incorporates an expectation. In that, when an individual has generated repeated situations that are threatening, they actually incorporate more of an ability to match that other individual, or match the wolf, for they actually incorporate, without the element of the surprise, more of an ability to focus upon what is threatening.

Now, this can be in any type of a situation. It can be with another individual that is being the predator; it can be in a situation with an animal. It can be in a situation of what you would term to be a disaster such as a flood, or an earthquake, or a tornado – which, these are physical elements that you term to be nature, but they are energy, and they can be viewed as aggressive, threatening types of energy. They are destructive – or they CAN be destructive. In this, it is another situation that triggers or produces fear and generates that reaction of your nervous system which creates chemical reactions within your body consciousness, and you generate the physical and emotional expression of the fear.

Now; in that, if you are focusing your attention in what is actually occurring, what the threat actually is, and as we discussed, matching that – not in the manner of matching energy, as we also discussed, but creating that definite mirror in which the individual is mirroring the energy of the threat; not creating another threat, but mirroring what the threat is – it changes the energy that the individual themself is expressing, which also changes the body consciousness reaction.

Now, it may not entirely dissipate the fear. There may continue to be some aspect of the fear, but it does dissipate it to an extent.

Now; it does dissipate it to the extent that the fear is no longer immobilizing. And in that, it is not even necessary for the individual to objectively be aware of choices. Once they can move beyond the immobilization of the fear, the body consciousness will automatically fall into alignment with that mirroring action. It will change what it is doing, and rather than expressing the automatic response of fight or flight, the body consciousness will stand. And in standing, the action that you are doing is very much moving in that expression of the mirror. You are the threat; now, rather than seeing me, you are no longer seeing me; you are seeing the image of you. You are seeing that mirror, for what the victim individual is projecting, or changing, is that they are becoming the mirror, which requires no physical action. There is no physical movement that is required or involved; it is merely a shift in energy in which now the individual is as much of a mirror as an actual pane of glass is a mirror.

In this, the predator, or the perpetrator, does not see the victim any longer, for the image of the victim has shifted. It is different. Just as with the wolf: When the wolf, or the dog, is approaching in that direction of attack and is expressing that aggression, if you as an individual are MIRRORING that energy, the automatic response of the attacker is to stop. It confuses their energy. For just as the victim is familiar with the attack, the attacker is familiar with the victim's position. Just as the victim expects what the attacker shall do, the attacker expects the victim to BE the victim. If that changes, it confuses the situation. It interrupts it momentarily – which, a moment is all that is necessary.

In this, the victim is not changing the attacker but is generating an energy that is different and therefore interrupts the attacker and confuses them. There is, in a manner of speaking, a very direct and smooth line, figuratively speaking, between an attacker and a victim. It is a dance that they do together, and in that dance it is a very even action. It flows, and it moves each individual generating their part of the dance in that smooth flow. Even if there is panic and screaming and flailing and violence, nevertheless it is a smooth flow of an intention and of an energy that is very directed, and both individuals are playing the role to accomplish the situation. If one individual is not moving in that smooth flow, is interrupting that direct line of energy, it confuses the situation.

And it does not require much to generate that type of interruption. And as we discussed in our previous conversation, in some situations the individual that is the victim may not necessarily incorporate this information objectively, and therefore they may not objectively know what to do. And in that, it is also important that all of you that are NOT engaging that situation are generating a type of energy that ripples out to those individuals to support them and to influence impulses with them through that interconnectedness that they would not necessarily automatically generate themself. This is the benefit of BEING interconnected, that you can gain information and experience without having to generate it yourself.

ROSE: Yes. I mean, it is very clear that it is not by accident or by chance that these two people meet. There is a vibrational match. There is an agreement to meet each other, right?

ELIAS: Yes, you are quite correct: It is not an accident, it is not a coincidence, that it is, in one manner of speaking, quite intentional.

ROSE: Mm-hm.

ELIAS: That each individual is projecting a specific type of energy which is attracting the other energy.

ROSE: Yes.

ELIAS: And even if the victim is in the position that they perceive themself to be less than, or not as powerful as, the aggressor, it matters not. They can generate that action of mirroring and be effective. It is not necessary for you to believe that you are equally as strong as the aggressor. Even if you perceive yourself, or believe yourself, to be weaker, less powerful, incorporating less ability, it matters not. [Polly barks in background as though in approval of this statement.] You can create this mirror action regardless.

ROSE: Sometimes when I hear about this mirroring I feel like I’m blinking out and, pfft, “I don't understand anything at all and how could I ever do this? I don't even know what he (Elias) is talking about.” (Both laugh) Even though I understand it from my mind, there is something in me that feels so stressed at moments that I think, “Oh god, I would have to train that, actually.” (Elias laughs)

ELIAS: I am understanding, for it is very unfamiliar.

ROSE: Yes.

ELIAS: It is not an action that you are accustomed to. You are VERY familiar with the automatic responses of fight and flight and, beyond being very FAMILIAR with those expressions, you are also very familiar with JUSTIFYING those actions. Therefore, in different capacities both of those actions are considered to be good, and to be productive, and to be right in different situations.

And in this, the action of NOT engaging either of those actions is very unfamiliar. If I do not engage either of THOSE actions, what do I do? You stand. You mirror. “If I am frightened, I am not mirroring”? Not necessarily. Remember: Your emotions, your FEELINGS are not necessarily an indicator of what your energy is doing. In this, your emotions are communicating to you, but they are not necessarily an indicator of what your energy is doing. You may be very fearful, you may be very afraid and also projecting an energy that is creating a shield, or that is generating a type of communication: "As fearful as I am, you may not touch me." An individual may engage a disastrous situation in a natural action and stop and be expressing tremendous fear but not necessarily engage those automatic responses of fight or flight – and STAND.

Individuals define courage as being not afraid, as associated with the fight aspect – asserting yourself. Courage is not necessarily asserting yourself, and courage is not the lack of fear. Courage is the ability to stand even when you ARE afraid.

ROSE: I agree. (Laughs)

ELIAS: Do not react. THAT is the key, in itself, to not react. Reacting prompts and encourages other actions. Therefore it is not a matter of asserting; it is a matter of not reacting.

ROSE: (Chuckles) I like that.

ELIAS: Which, that may be somewhat easier to understand, for you do understand "reaction."

ROSE: Yes.

ELIAS: And you can understand that you can be afraid and not react.

ROSE: Yes. Yes, I do. (Both laugh)

I have one last question. Mary's beeper will beep right on. About this "ignoring": The action of "ignoring" is not automatically flight; it can be an expression of preference also?

ELIAS: Yes, it can.


ELIAS: It is dependent upon the situation and how it is being expressed. It is not automatically flight. Although it very often IS flight, but you can also intentionally choose to be ignoring and not necessarily be generating that expression of flight.

[The timer for the end of the session rings]

ROSE: Yes. I would agree. Because sometimes you are focused in one direction and you don't want to get distracted, [inaudible] –


ROSE: – you don't feel fine with, you just ignore them, you go your way. And this is not flight, in my opinion.

ELIAS: Yes, I would agree.

ROSE: Very good! Thank you very much.

ELIAS: You are very welcome. I shall greatly be anticipating our next conversation, my friend.

ROSE: Me too.

ELIAS: And as always, I continue to express tremendous supportiveness and encouragement to you, and encouragement in your accomplishments, for you do continue to move, and I continue to congratulate you.

ROSE: Thank you very much.

ELIAS: Until our next meeting, my dear friend, in tremendous affection and in very dear lovingness to you, au revoir.

ROSE: Au revoir.

(Elias departs after 1 hour 15 seconds)

[1] Session 2904, January 8, 2010

Copyright 2010 Mary Ennis, All Rights Reserved.