Perception and Subjective Reality
Topics:
“Perception and Subjective Reality”
“The Zero Point Exercise”
“Shifting into Receiving”
“Explanation of Aspects”
“Intimacy in Relationships”
“Self-Awareness and Time”
Thursday, August 7, 2025 (Private/Phone)
Participants: Mary (Michael) and Julie (Fontine)
ELIAS: Good morning!
JULIE: Good morning, Elias. (Chuckles)
ELIAS: Good. How shall we begin?
JULIE: Hm. How shall we…? When I was thinking about that, the first thing that comes to mind is that I need to go forth and be bold and trust myself, and stop relying on your validation of everything I want to do (laughs) before I believe in it and take action on my own directions—
ELIAS: Aha.
JULIE: — and abilities. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Very well.
JULIE: But I do appreciate your reflections and feedback. But I guess the thing that… Like for a long time, I’ve known… You know, I’ve had enough material to teach a class or several classes on—
ELIAS: I agree.
JULIE: — ways to shift the perception, and work with my awareness and consciousness. And so (laughs) I… And you know, when I encounter, when I talk with people in the Elias forum, most people want to know that Elias validated it or taught it or said it before. And I fall in that camp, too. I’ve wanted that validation of the authority, of the best authority I know. (Laughs) You know?
ELIAS: I understand, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
JULIE: Yeah. Yeah. And so when I think about actually teaching a class, the first thing that comes up is, “Oh, but if Elias didn’t say it, then I can’t teach it.” But then—
ELIAS: Ah. (Laughs) I would express no to that. (Chuckles)
JULIE: Because there’s a lot that you haven’t said or that’s not, also not in the material that I’m privy to.
ELIAS: And also, you have your own interpretation of what to express and what is successful for you.
JULIE: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s kind of a—
ELIAS: And that is very valid.
JULIE: Mm-hm. It has been successful for me, and then it’s a discovery to find out if I share things and it’s not, it doesn’t make sense (laughs) to other people. But I think I’m kind of more of an intuitive and I don’t have a logical, a very logical… or I don’t prefer to use logic sometimes. In some ways, I very much do but I’m not sure if I’m not making sense to people because of that, or just because they’re not ready, or a mixture of both. But anyway… (Laughs)
ELIAS: That’s understandable. But I would say that if you were taking the position of teaching a group of individuals, then it’s simply a matter of asking questions. And therefore when you’re asking questions of the people that you’re teaching, you can ask questions in the direction of whether they understand or not, and if they express no then you can move in a direction of explaining further or differently. But I would also say that many times people do understand and aren’t necessarily having any reaction.
JULIE: Yeah.
ELIAS: That’s the reason that occasionally it’s important to ask them if they understand.
JULIE: Yeah. Okay. All right. Now—
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: The next thing. You had… Last time we talked, I was telling you how I have a technique of reaching into the void or into my sense, a sense of emptiness, or (coughs). Excuse me. It’s actually more that that’s what I… That’s an area that I don’t perceive. So… And I call it my whole self (laughs). It’s not perceivable, because everything that’s perceivable is in front of me. It’s this objective reality, it’s this objective reality that I’m perceiving. Perception is not in the other side of the coin—
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: — of myself.
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: Yeah. So…
ELIAS: The point of becoming more aware of that other side of yourself is that you can translate it objectively, and therefore you can intentionally use it in relation to perception. It’s involved with perception, but most people are not aware of how it’s involved.
JULIE: It’s… See, the way I’ve always explained it to myself is that everything is consciousness, and consciousness is awareness. It’s… And it has access to everything, can be everything. You know, you said units of consciousness or links of consciousness, and they can become anything and everything. And that’s kind of what I’ve been working on and with, like with that premise and that whatever configuration of consciousness that I’m doing inwardly is what I’m seeing outwardly in front of me.
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: And so then I use that outward as feedback for the energy that I am being or projecting. (Pause) And yeah, there are ways to try to perceive that inwardly. (Pause) But the way I’ve been, I do it, is just I set an intention and then I go inward. I go inward to that sense of myself and allow it to manifest that intention of…
ELIAS: Which is understandable. And I would say that it’s actually excellent that you have that understanding of what you’re doing intentionally.
JULIE: Mm-hm.
ELIAS: Is there some question about that?
JULIE: No. I think if I start talking to you more about it, I’m just going to get confused, so… (Both laugh)
ELIAS: Very well. That’s acceptable. (Both laugh)
JULIE: I’ve gone on a lot of wild goose chases, being confused about something you said (laughs) so…
ELIAS: I’d say that that’s excellent, that you recognize that. Because you ARE moving in an excellent direction in relation to being aware of what you’re doing and being aware of that subjective aspect and how it’s interplaying with your choices and with your objective awareness, and how you’re moving in a direction of recognizing that harmony and parallel.
JULIE: Mm-hm. Okay.
ELIAS: And the subjective does do both. It moves in harmony AND parallels. Because a parallel doesn’t necessarily mean that the imagery would be the same, if there were imagery which there isn’t actually, with the subjective. But if there were, it wouldn’t necessarily be the same as the objective, which is the reason that in dreams your objective is translating the subjective, but it’s symbolic, not literal. Therefore that’s because the subjective doesn’t actually have imagery.
But in that, I would say that what you’re doing in recognizing that whatever you’re doing objectively is reflective of that parallel with your subjective, I would say that that is a tremendous accomplishment.
JULIE: Well, thanks.
ELIAS: And how would you necessarily report – let me amend that. Let me ask a different question first. Would you be inclined to be expressing that to a class?
JULIE: Yes.
ELIAS: Very well. How would you be doing that at this point?
JULIE: That the inner – how would I express to people that the outer is a reflection of the inner?
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: What we’re doing inside—
ELIAS: Yes. Yes.
JULIE: Yeah, because—
ELIAS: Because people don’t actually understand that. They hear the words, but they’re not sure what the inner is, and therefore they don’t actually understand when you or I express that in words, that the objective is a reflection of the subjective and vice versa, and that the inner is part of the outer. They don’t understand that.
JULIE: Yeah. So then I would have to say it’s what you’re paying attention to. There’s that old phrase, “Energy flows where attention goes.” A lot of people kind of do understand that, and there are some good ways to talk about it involving synchronicity and how— (Pause) Are you there?
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: Oh, okay. I just heard… Okay. Synchronicity is, you know, it’s actually just what we’re paying attention to (laughs), is what it is.
ELIAS: Precisely.
JULIE: Yeah. And so we could be paying… So then we would have to look at, like what am I, what have I been paying attention to? And we might notice we’ve been talking about something a lot. And THAT is a really good way of focusing your attention, is when you talk about something. And then suddenly, well now I’m seeing blue vans everywhere because I was just talking to you about that for thirty minutes or whatever. It’s just whatever we pay attention to, that’s kind of the world that’s forming around us. Or… But it’s not always just things. Sometimes it’s a type of situation; for example, a drama, like with me (laughs), like people getting hurt or being in the hospital or whatever.
And so I understand that, and I have developed ways to move my attention from that topic by just acknowledging to myself that it is, it’s there because I was paying attention to it, and almost like a resolve to move my attention elsewhere. Which what I do is I move it to the… I call it the zero point, but it’s like resetting my attention back into my original self, original nature, the direction that would be natural to me if I hadn’t got stuck in this little loop of attention.
ELIAS: Excellent.
JULIE: Yeah. And so that’s a little technique that works for me, and it actually works for lots of people in the… I would say, I wouldn’t even call it “New Age Community,” but metaphysical communities.
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: Yeah.
ELIAS: That’s excellent. That’s an excellent explanation, and an excellent type of exercise.
JULIE: Okay. Thank you.
ELIAS: You’re very welcome. I’d say that you are quite ready to move in that direction.
JULIE: Okay.
ELIAS: Perhaps meditation is not enough. That in relation to what you’re doing with it in guided meditations, perhaps it is time for you to move in a direction of something new and more fulfilling.
JULIE: Yeah. I’ve thought about… You know, the meditation that I’ve been teaching, it’s kind of a way of training, training the attention to move in new ways that we’re not used to. So that would be forming new neurological pathways.
ELIAS: Absolutely.
JULIE: Yeah. And that’s important, and that was the basis of how I learned to manipulate my attention more specifically, even… Well, yeah, that’s how I learned. And so I learned how to identify my attention moving in meditation, with the Vipassana meditation that I learned from Shinzen Young. And then I maybe learned some other little techniques from other paths, other meditation paths as well, like Dzogchen. But yeah, I mean that was there for me to learn and probably I have other, a lot of other focuses I’ve… If all of our focuses are coming from the now point, I chose those focuses, I chose those focuses in the now (laughs) to look at them—
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: Yeah. And you know, I chose to use that ability by going into that way that had already been developed.
ELIAS: Correct. And I again would acknowledge you tremendously for moving to a position and accomplishing this position of awareness that you have now, which is considerable.
JULIE: Thank you.
ELIAS: I’d say that there are many, many, many people that could benefit from your awareness, your teaching and your example, just as you have benefited from other teachers. And in that, your awareness is (pause) greater than most other individuals at this point in relation to self-awareness, and not simply being self-aware but what to do with it, how you can benefit from that and how that moves you in a direction of being able to choose intentionally, which is the point. And I would say I’ve been expressing that point to everyone that engages with myself for three decades. That this is the point: to be able to live intentionally, to make choices intentionally, to know what to do and what types of choices to engage when you are uncomfortable with the choices that you’ve made. And all of that – you’re correct, you’re very correct – all of that has to do with your attention.
JULIE: Yeah. I’ve been thinking. I know there are other paths of gaining more awareness, but I’ve been thinking well how, how does it benefit me to teach? I mean, I guess being Borledim, I gravitate towards people and nurturing, and other people reflect to me what I don’t know about myself yet.
ELIAS: Very much so.
JULIE: There are some things. And so that’s the benefit, right there, is the coming in contact with different kinds of people than have been drawn to me before—
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: — just in my daily life.
ELIAS: Yes. And that’s what you WILL draw to yourself. Because that’s what you’re going to attract. You’re going to attract other people that have similarities to you but are different. And in those differences, they will be able to naturally, simply by being themselves, offer different information to you. Which helps you to teach, which helps you in your daily life, which helps you in remembering what you’re paying attention to.
JULIE: Mm-hm. Yeah, it does help. It helps to have others around me to talk to, from that similar… It helps me stay more aware, definitely.
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: Yeah. And my topic of intentionality, which is greater and greater self-awareness. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Precisely.
JULIE: Yeah.
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: Okay. In conversation with Jib yesterday, Debbie had to leave. We didn’t get to share her presence for very long, but we were talking about the shift in consciousness. Is that the…? The shift to the subjective is the shift to receiving, is that correct? Like I know it’s the shift—
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: — to the female, but it’s also, we could also call it the shift to receiving instead of—
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: — doing. Is that…? Instead of doing?
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: Okay. All right. I like that. It seems more simple to me to say it that way, so…
ELIAS: Very well.
JULIE: So I would include that (laughs) definitely—
ELIAS: Yes.
JULIE: — when I teach people.
ELIAS: It’s very accurate.
JULIE: Okay. Yeah. And the receiving is magnetic. Like you become that energy that you want to be, and it comes.
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: You see it all around you in all kinds of forms.
ELIAS: That is correct. And this is how the objective and the subjective interplay, because if you have that reception and the reception is clear, if you’re receiving clearly, then your projection is more clear also.
JULIE: Mm-hm. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
ELIAS: Because that’s what you do with that reception. You receive and then you project. (Pause)
JULIE: Okay. Let’s see. I had another… Oh, there was another thing I wanted to ask you about that came up with Jib. We were talking about aspects of ourselves and I see our aspects kind of like as parts, parts in me that come out or express. And they’re not the whole of me, they’re something… They’re a part. I mean, you might even say they’re a… You could, might be able to say they’re the memory of a focus or a focus, another focus. I don’t know if it’s… I mean… I don’t know the difference that much. Are aspects the same as a focus of essence?
ELIAS: That’s actually a small part of it. You’re very complex beings and aspects are all those parts of you, all of the parts of you that are expressed, all of the parts of you that are latent. And in that, the different aspects of you that, in a manner of speaking, show themselves, that comes from any piece of interest.
Now, remember: interest doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s something you like. It might not be something you like. It might be something attached to an issue or trauma, or it could be something you like but it’s not always. Therefore it doesn’t necessarily mean that synonymously, but there’s always some piece of interest that is attached to an aspect of you. Just as anything you do, all the things that you are interested in objectively and anything that you involve yourself in, there are many different things that you have interests in. It’s not only one facet. You are multifaceted and in that, everything that shows itself objectively is an aspect of you that is expressing some form of interest.
JULIE: Okay. All right. So can we work with a dream right now? We’re talking about interests, and I’ve been kind of looking at that. I had a dream yesterday that… Well, first I’ll tell you about last week.
ELIAS: Very well.
JULIE: Last week I woke up, I was coming out of sleep, I was in that liminal state in between and I could feel, I’ve never felt such terror, ever. It was very intense fear. And I calmed myself pretty quickly. I don’t remember what I told myself now though, but I told myself it wasn’t me now, or something like that, or that I’m larger than that or whatever it was. I calmed myself, but it was so intense. I was wondering what that was, why—
ELIAS: What was the imagery?
JULIE: There was no imagery. It was just that feeling as I was waking up, and I didn’t have any imagery to go with it. Maybe I was… Maybe I forgot the imagery when I felt that feeling or noticed that feeling. I don’t know.
ELIAS: Or perhaps it wasn’t attached to any imagery.
JULIE: Right.
ELIAS: I would then say to you, how you interpret that is first – always move in this direction first. First you look at everything and anything that you have been involved with or that you’ve been in any capacity paying attention to recently. That would be, I would say, within a week’s time framework. You first look at all of that. And if you can find anything that is disturbing to you or bothersome to you, it doesn’t necessarily have to be something that you’re afraid of on the surface, but that if you can find anything that is bothersome to you or disturbing to you, meaning it might not even be something that is on the surface personal to you. You may have heard something or seen something and it may have been disturbing to you. And in that, when you look at that and you ask yourself, “Why is this disturbing to me? How does that affect me personally? What am I afraid is going to happen or what am I afraid is potentially going to happen? Or what am I afraid of in relation to consequences?”
Then when you look into that, then you can see how your subjective side of you was actually expressing that fear, and you can then address to that. If you cannot find anything that has been in your objective, waking time that has been disturbing to you, which is possible in that amount of time, if you cannot find anything, then it’s very likely that it’s associated with another focus.
JULIE: Okay. So something connected with that is I became aware immediately that all three of my animals are stationed around me on the bed, the two cats and the dog. And I felt that they were protecting me, but what do I need protection from?
ELIAS: (Pause) Actually I’d say they weren’t protecting you. They were giving you an energy of comfort, to not be afraid. And that is a response that they would very naturally have, recognizing your energy, as that is their first language. Therefore recognizing your energy being that disturbed and frightened, then they would naturally, automatically respond to you in relation to a comforting energy, recognizing that there is no imminent threat.
JULIE: Okay.
ELIAS: Because they recognize the energy and they see there’s no actual threat to you. There’s no physical threat to you, and therefore what you are experiencing energetically requires a considerable amount of comforting, which then would require all of them.
JULIE: Okay. Yeah, sometimes—
ELIAS: I would say, if you are paying attention to our conversation, most of it is not about validation.
JULIE: What’s it about? (Laughs)
ELIAS: Therefore I would acknowledge you tremendously because you began this conversation expressing that you need to be more bold. You need to trust yourself and you need to move forward and not rely on myself for validation of everything, but you’re not relying on myself for validation. You’re asking questions for clarification or for information.
JULIE: Mm-hm. Okay. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: Therefore I congratulate you on that also.
JULIE: Yeah, that’s…
[Section deleted]
JULIE: You know, I’ve been looking at that, of not being enough, how it has just been around for so long, how that’s a strong energy that I’ve given a lot of attention to.
ELIAS: And those types of, those types of expressions and perceptions are difficult to turn, because you have expressed that for almost your entire life.
JULIE: Yeah. Yeah.
ELIAS: And to a degree, you’re still doing it.
JULIE: Mm-hm. Yeah.
ELIAS: This, my friend, is also once again in relation to what you’re doing and what you’re moving into in self-awareness, this is another piece of being aware of that subjective interplay with the objective, in that it influences behavior that you might not be paying attention to objectively. Therefore this very much fits in relation to what you are speaking about in regard to your teaching. And this is an excellent example of how your behavior is affected and influenced, which your behavior is that direction of not trusting yourself and not trusting the other individual.
JULIE: Mm-hm. Okay. And they go hand-in-hand. I can trust myself. I can trust the other. And we’re not the same.
ELIAS: Absolutely.
JULIE: We’re just not… We’re not expressing the same thing, and that’s okay and I can trust.
ELIAS: But you are. You’re simply expressing it differently. Your interests are not the same, but in some directions you ARE expressing the same. You’re simply expressing it differently. Meaning that this is also a part of how the subjective interplay works, that because you are all different and because objective imagery is more abstract, it’s a matter of recognizing on the whole. You are two whole individuals. You are partners. You are intimately involved with each other. You know each other very well and you are also expressing your individual interests, and paying attention to your individual interests. But at your core, in that whole of each of you, you love and support each other. That doesn’t mean that you have to follow the same interests, but you’re doing the same thing in your core by loving and supporting each other.
JULIE: Okay.
ELIAS: Now, I would say that enhancing that can be expressed by moving in the direction of actively expressing what you might term to be a mild interest in what each other are doing. Therefore you don’t have to actually have a genuine interest in what the other individual is doing, but you’re interested in them. And therefore you show that by expressing questions about what they’re doing or expressing some type of validation of what they’re doing or asking questions in relation to having more information about what they’re doing. And in this, when one individual does that more consistently, the other one will begin doing it also.
JULIE: Okay. All right.
ELIAS: And this is also another important factor to be including in your teaching, because many, many, many people have partners and many people have questions about how to be more successfully interacting with them or how to be more intimate with them – and intimacy doesn’t always include sex. And it’s also a matter of looking at orientations. Soft orientations are not always interested in sexual activity. They put that on hiatus many times, because their interest of passion is moving in a different direction. And then eventually it moves back to sexual expressions, and then it moves away from that. That is a very natural expression with soft individuals and it’s something that’s important to remember.
JULIE: Yeah. Well, okay. I think I forgot that a little bit. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Because that’s also an important factor in association with relationships and with yourself, to remember your own orientation and what that means.
JULIE: Yeah. (Pause) Well, for me it means exploring.
ELIAS: I very much understand. I would say that that would be accurate of almost all soft orientations. (Both chuckle) And stretching themselves. Moving farther into directions that they are interested in and that they’re involved in. Not being satisfied with settling.
JULIE: Yeah. Hm. So… Okay. (Both chuckle) Okay. So another very interesting topic for me is… and I don’t know, Debbie mentions one word, the self in time, and I’m like, “Oh no! What does Elias mean about that?” (Both laugh) And I… You know, I’ve got lots of time explorations but I want to hear what you… Like what are you, what do you mean about that? Is that important?
ELIAS: I would say that as you become more self-aware, you begin to notice that the lines of time, so to speak, begin to blur and that there are situations that time seems to move more in that design of being simultaneous instead of being linear. Most of the time it remains linear, but there are definitely situations in which you will experience time being very different in its configuration. That is the reason that I have expressed or encouraged people to be revisiting Oversoul Seven. There are (chuckles) considerable lessons to be learned.
JULIE: Okay. I’ll do it then. I’ll read, I’ll read it again. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: It’s interesting how – and I am aware that you know this – that in relation to attention, that at one time you can give yourself information or you can read a book or watch something, and it means one thing and you understand it from one angle. And at another time, given your increase in self-awareness, it will present something entirely different to you.
JULIE: Definitely. And depending on even my mood or what I’ve been paying attention to that day. Yeah.
ELIAS: Most definitely. You will give yourself much more information and clarity. And that is why I’m expressing that encouragement to revisit Oversoul Seven and notice the difference in clarity.
JULIE: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[The timer for the end of the session rings]
JULIE: There’s something about perception and other individuals having a different perception that I’ve been understanding more now. And it helps me to not want to change—
(Ringing)
JULIE: Is that the timer?
ELIAS: (Laughs) Yes.
JULIE: Oh, okay. All right.
ELIAS: Finish your thought.
JULIE: To not want to change their perception anymore, because I realize… I realize exactly that same thing we were talking about, how they’re always coming to the moment with whatever is on their mind, their mood, whatever they’re paying attention to, whatever their awareness is. Which might be different in different time periods, morning, even evening or whatever.
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: And so there is absolutely no way I can control or… or even, like their perception just may not be accurate about me or what I said or what I did. Not accurate, by that I mean not the way I perceive it. Because—
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: But I perceive myself better than anyone else could, unless they have more awareness than I do. And most people, they just cannot be as aware of me as I am of myself.
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: Obviously. And so, it’s not important. It’s just not important. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Excellent. I would say that is an excellent leap.
JULIE: Thanks. And it’s a leap for me. (Laughs) Because—
ELIAS: I would say that it would be not only a leap for you but for anyone, because it’s actually very correct that no one can fully incorporate the same perception as you, because they’re not you.
JULIE: Right. (Laughs) Yeah. And they may think they know something, and to them… It’s their reflection. It’s for them. It’s really for them.
ELIAS: Precisely.
JULIE: And what, how they choose to be in regard to that. That’s all it is.
ELIAS: Precisely.
JULIE: Yeah. So it just… It helps me a lot (laughs) to finally recognize that.
ELIAS: That’s excellent. I would say that is tremendous, my friend.
JULIE: Yeah. Thanks. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: That is actually very much deserving of acknowledgment and a congratulations because that is actually quite accurate.
JULIE: Yeah. Yeah. I can see the accuracy of it.
ELIAS: Correct.
JULIE: And that came from self-awareness, like noticing even I don’t perceive myself the same (both laugh) from moment to moment, from time period to time period, whatever. (Laughs) Even I don’t, so how can I expect anyone else to perceive me—
ELIAS: (Laughs) Precisely. (Julie laughs) I very much agree. (Both laugh)
JULIE: Yeah. Okay. (Elias chuckles) Well thank you, Elias.
ELIAS: You are tremendously welcome, my dear friend. I shall be very much looking forward to our next meeting, and I express tremendous, tremendous encouragement to you in continuing in your journey in what you have to share with other individuals. I remember some time ago, in the beginning of our objective interactions, you wanting to know what your purpose was and what you were contributing to the shift, and now you can answer that.
JULIE: Hm.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) I express tremendous, tremendous love to you and treasured friendship. Until our next meeting, au revoir.
JULIE: I love you. Au revoir.
(Elias departs after 55 minutes)
Copyright 2025 Mary Ennis, All Rights Reserved.