Model of reality
Topics:
“A New Way of Looking at Reality”
“Choices in Interactions”
“Exploring Opposites in Yourself”
“Being Aware of Yourself Enough to Not Be Reactive”
“Compartmentalization”
“Interconnectedness"
Monday, June 30, 2025 (Private/Phone)
Participants: Mary (Michael) and Markus (Markus)
ELIAS: Good afternoon!
MARKUS: Good nowness, Rastin. Good to speak to you again.
ELIAS: And you also.
MARKUS: Thank you.
ELIAS: And how shall we begin?
MARKUS: I have no idea, as usual. (Elias laughs) I will just… I just wanted to hear your lovely voice again (Elias laughs) and we will see where we end up.
ELIAS: Very well. (Chuckles) I always enjoy our conversations.
MARKUS: And so do I.
ELIAS: (Laughs) And what have you been engaging recently?
MARKUS: It’s hard to believe, but last time we spoke was almost two years ago.
ELIAS: Ah.
MARKUS: And basically I’ve been busy in all the time – no, not all the time, I mean not exclusively but consistently – trying to implement your material and understand more about it from, let’s say, my own experience and own perspective.
ELIAS: And what part?
MARKUS: All of it, you know.
ELIAS: (Laughs) All of it. (Both laugh)
MARKUS: No, actually I’m focusing on… How do I call it? On the practical parts. I’m trying to ignore most of the faraway, metaphysical aspects and I’m working with what I call your basics that I’m always obsessed with. Like acceptance and noticing and awareness and self-awareness especially, this is basically my playground for the last two years, and also untangling the part of “You create your own reality” versus shared physical reality. We talked about that, I think two years ago, where I think I said – I didn’t see a transcript of that, but I think I remember I said I was giving the physical… I was no longer calling it physical reality, but was going into the direction of using the word or the idea of reality as something deeply personal, like Seth’s book. You create your personal reality and you create your own reality. And I think I understand you when you say there is no official reality.
ELIAS: Correct.
MARKUS: So I’m thinking this was like one of my long, or has been one of my long-term projects, either getting rid of the word “reality” or understanding that when people say “reality,” they sometimes or almost always mean very, can mean very different things about it. Personal reality versus, let’s say, the mainstream or conventional idealist reality refers to physical facts, like something is “real” means something is physical. Which kind of contradicts some of your statements, when like you say imagination is real although it’s obviously not physical. So I was trying to untangle that.
ELIAS: Aha!
MARKUS: Yes.
ELIAS: Which I was about to express again that there are many expressions that are not physical that are very real. Such as your perception of yourself, that’s very real but it isn’t necessarily physical.
MARKUS: Right. And actually this was, in retrospect it was harder to figure out than it now looks like it needed to be. But as I’ve said, as we talked last time, back then I was still using or trying to find a useful word for physical, because many of those words kind of imply real. Back then I had toyed with the idea of calling the physical the actuality, like things that are actually physical versus things you perceive or assume are physical or make assumptions about the physical. And I’ve, basically I’ve ended up with just calling the physical or physicality physical environment or the physical environment, because it’s the most neutral word I could come up with in, let’s say, discussing or thinking about those many layers of our existence, or of existence of a focus like myself within the physical system with this given blueprint, etc., etc.
ELIAS: Interesting. And what is your conclusion?
MARKUS: Well, actually—
ELIAS: Or do you have a… (chuckles) Or do you have a conclusion?
MARKUS: No, I don’t. (Elias laughs) I just have a more layered or more detailed model for myself of this existence or of this experience. Actually I’m avoiding the word “real” or “reality,” meanwhile—
ELIAS: I understand.
MARKUS: — altogether, even for personal reality, because it’s still has the connotation of factual, of generally applicable, etc. etc. I’m just… Basically my latest step in this direction is that I call the physical “the physical environment” and that I call personal or what you might call or what Seth called in his book personal reality, I just call it “experience.”
ELIAS: Very well.
MARKUS: Because I think this untangles the many layers that are in between the two, and I think – I just talked to Mary about… She has been exploring the word “perception,” and perception also has many layers. Like perception can be the direct perception of something physical, like a wall you touch, and in that kind of perception, usually in the way we experience it there is let’s say very little leeway of influencing then, while other perceptions are more in the realm of opinion, like I am perceiving the war in Ukraine has these or those characteristics, or even I perceive what this person said was rude, friendly, intelligent, whatever. These are both, we were using both the word “perception” for those. And in one, there’s a lot of leeway to influence that while direct, physical perception, while it has some leeway, like I’m in water, there’s relatively little doubt about it. “Is the water warm or cold?” goes a bit more in the direction of opinion and “Is the color of the pool nice?” it goes even more in the direction of opinion. So I’m untangling many layers between, let’s say, pure imagination which is decoupled from the physical environment or can be decoupled from the physical environment, to perception or experience that has very direct reference to the physical environment.
ELIAS: Understood. I would say that’s quite a lot to keep you considerably busy.
MARKUS: Ah, it is. It is. (Elias laughs) But it also makes, let’s say, these ideas of “You’re creating your own reality,” to take this slow and more accessible, or let’s say more practical or more realistic. Because I have multiple, let’s say, points at which I can apply leverage to create what I want or to see that I’m creating what I want. And this is, let’s say, yeah, it’s keeping me busy to try to understand things that are making up my reality, my experience. Ah! There was it, my reality, my experience. (Elias laughs) And trying to find where in the spectrum this specific thing or a specific thing or a specific experience but based on a perception is based or originates from.
ELIAS: And I would ask two questions. One is about creating something intentionally in your reality. And based in your exploration of the experience, how are you moving and what types of choices – or let me rephrase that. How are you directing and what type of choices are you engaging that allow you to create something intentionally?
MARKUS: (Pause) Well it obviously depends on what I want to create intentionally. And as I’ve said there are outcomes that originate in… like in different layers of what I’m trying to untangle. So it may be something that is merely a perception. I’m getting a little lost there. Give me a minute.
ELIAS: Very well.
MARKUS: (Pause) I think the most interesting observation or realization now is first to become aware: What is this that I want? And then—
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: Basically going down the list or the layers according to conventional means to achieve it. This is one of the things that went out a bit in the “baby with the bathwater” kind that especially, let’s say with Abraham’s idea of law of attraction or you create, likely it’s like I kind of got a bit sidetracked in a way that when I want something, I can quote-unquote just “wish” it or “vibrate” it into existence. Which I assume is true to some extent, but I am moving more in the direction of making it part of my experience in conventional ways. Like let’s say I need new glasses and it makes little sense to just come into or imagine that I’m seeing my computer clearer. It’s far better or far more effective to do it in the conventional way, while being aware of my steps, of my decision choices and also in the background of what you might call my energy or my vibration, in order to not be counterproductive of what I’m doing physically.
ELIAS: Understood.
MARKUS: And it’s something I kind of think I have developed a new understanding, that even if you by law of attraction or law of vibrational attraction or whatever you might call it, this dimension or this blueprint works first and foremost or often along the established paths of how you conventionally, or how we think that things are conventionally done. And the wonders only happen if there’s, let’s say, huge forces or huge attractions in place. And if it’s kind of all the conventional means, physical means, like someone does it for you, someone helps that you asked for help, you do it yourself, you take it in your own hands, have been exhausted and then it’s, let’s say, for existence or all that is or for the blueprint of this reality, it’s harder to create wonders compared to just working with what kind of societal mechanisms we have here. Like if I want to have an apple on, sitting on my desk, it’s easier to go to the refrigerator and fetch one or buy one than to try to manifest it out of thin air.
ELIAS: I would agree. And how are you generating different choices in relation to other individuals in interaction in relation to creating your experience?
MARKUS: What do you mean by that?
ELIAS: This is generally a stumbling block for most people, is that they generate this line, in a manner of speaking, in their perception between what they can choose for themselves and therefore what they can create for themselves, or if there is a factor of any other individual involved, then that becomes for most people much more difficult because they are separating themselves and don’t necessarily believe that they can create what they want if there is an involvement of other people.
Therefore I’m asking you, in relation to your exploration with experience, how that is directed, how you are directing that and what choices you are intentionally making in relation to your interaction with other people.
MARKUS: I think, if I understand what you are saying correctly or what you’re asking correctly – and please interrupt me if I don’t – one of the things I do very specifically is that I don’t make outcomes depend on specific people. Let’s just say I want to have an interesting conversation. I’m not making this dependent on “I want to have interesting conversations with this specific person,” because I know this is creating an expectation. Maybe this person has either not the means or doesn’t want that or does only want it to create this, like a conversation, with someone else. So I have long made it a habit to not place the outcome or tie the outcome to the person.
ELIAS: Understood. But let us say that you want to have an easy interaction with another person that you’re very familiar with, and let us say that this other person is almost always argumentative, and that their perception or their opinion of things is very, very different from your own, and they are very black and white. And in that, you want to have an easy interaction with this individual. What type of choices would you intentionally engage that would accomplish that? Not placing the outcome on the other person, which is good, but what would you choose to do? How would you choose to interact and accomplish what you want?
MARKUS: In that case, or in that specific example, I’m actually usually – this is a very practical example – making a choice to not engage them on those topics. Because most of those topics, I don’t have a very black and white opinion anyway, so I can see let’s say both sides of the argument and even if I come to a different conclusion, like take a current war or the issue of Trump or Elon Musk or whatever it is, I just don’t engage the conversation in that specific topic. I especially not correct or offer an opinion in a strong, absolute way, which is relatively easy for me because I’ve come so far in the issue of acceptance. And usually I deliberately steer the topic to something where there is a, let’s say, mutual interest or at least where we are more aligned, or something that is just at hand, like in the present, in the moment, like about the meal that we’re eating or the restaurant or something that doesn’t require offering, or that doesn’t threaten them.
ELIAS: And what if the other individual brings up the subjects that you’re not engaging?
MARKUS: I can always change the subject.
ELIAS: Yes, you can. Very well.
MARKUS: I mean, I can change the subject as often as I want, or I can basically end the interaction if it’s going into a direction that I don’t like and that doesn’t make my experience… I sometimes even decide to listen, because sometimes someone just needs to vent and I… It doesn’t bother me much to listen to this. Then at that point, I will not [be] engaging them but I’m allowing them to have a moment of beneficial interaction for themselves because it doesn’t cost me much. It’s not like I’m doing this for hours and hours, and sometimes it’s just easy to listen to someone give their standpoint.
ELIAS: Excellent answer. I would say congratulations.
MARKUS: Thank you.
ELIAS: That your study in acceptance is definitely paying off.
MARKUS: Oh, acceptance pays off in a big way.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) I agree.
MARKUS: I mean, it was my first big project with your material. Like I came, with my first session I came in contact with the material during the truth wave and so all your sessions were always acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, to the point that I even overlooked what else you offered. And so when I took my high edges from your material, I was just working acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, acceptance again, as far as I could before I came back and did… It offers so many benefits. (Elias chuckles) Especially in, or to huge degree in directions with others, and also in self-exploration because I found that, yeah, while self-acceptance is the name of the game or one of the names of the games.
ELIAS: That is a very important piece, that aspect of self-acceptance.
MARKUS: And since basically aside from this more theoretical idea of untangling our, the mechanisms of our physical, of this physical experience, the other main interest is self-awareness or as you previously called it, noticing what you’re doing. And this system of being human as we experience it I find has some intrinsic mechanics, let’s call it mechanics, psychological, I’m not saying rules but psychological processes. And the problem with a lack of acceptance of certain things or with placing judgment on certain things, I found myself that I’m, in exploring self-awareness, I’m trying to hide my, hide those things that I place judgment on from myself. Which is surprising in itself, that it’s even something that is possible, like hiding something from yourself or from everybody—
ELIAS: And I would say that you’re correct, and humans have an uncanny ability to do that.
MARKUS: I’ve said for years that it’s self-deception or lying to yourself is one of the most surprising abilities that we have as humans.
ELIAS: I agree.
MARKUS: And so I found, although this one initially was not the intention of my exploration or of my practicing of acceptance, that it… I found it very helpful in practicing self-awareness then because I don’t, with every small thing I find, I don’t get those twinges that go along with finding something that you place judgment on.
ELIAS: I would say that that is excellent. What types of aspects of yourself have you found to be the most difficult to either accept or to change?
MARKUS: One particularly difficult aspect, and this goes back to all our sessions during our pandemic, is that I had initially placed, let’s say, great value on the idea of perceiving – and I’m using the word intentionally here – of perceiving reality in an undistorted way. Even through the whole pandemic, even though I, and this is a gradual process or spectrum, I was aware that I was in the underside, which was where we had or where I had the vaccine hesitancy and I thought—
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: — the pandemic wasn’t as bad as other people thought. I did have, my acceptance at that point was developed enough to see that other persons place value on other things and have a different perception of the facts and a different selection of the facts, etc., etc., to not have the idea that they are outright wrong. But I still did have this feeling of slight superiority, like even though I know theoretically everyone has their perception, create their view of reality in their own way, I still had, and I had – this is one of those points – I had to admit to myself that I still had this idea of superiority. It’s like the acceptance of non-acceptance.
ELIAS: Ah!
MARKUS: I had to admit to myself that my acceptance in that part is partially just theoretically and spiritually correctness, and not genuine.
ELIAS: Ah!
MARKUS: And being able to look at that part, which I really, really, really didn’t like, was one of those examples where even acceptance of non-acceptance is helpful to admit to myself and to perceive correctly, and the other was that it is not necessary that I perceive the world even in a more neutral way as everybody else because it’s not a competition. It’s just about my experience, and everybody’s. Like the self-worth I had put in my ability to have a neutral perception did prevent, to some extent, to make my perception equally valid to those of other people. These I would say start –
ELIAS: Ah, equally valid. That’s an interesting expression or definition, when you were previously speaking about superiority. Therefore in that, you’re experiencing and exploring two opposites in yourself. Which is not unusual, but most people don’t see those opposites. Most people don’t define within themselves that they have those conflicting perceptions, that they have those conflicting expressions within themselves. They don’t look far enough, in a manner of speaking, to be able to identify that those types of expressions not only can exist together within you but do exist and are influencing of your choices and your behaviors.
MARKUS: Yes, especially those things that… Yeah, influencing those behaviors and the self-awareness of becoming aware that something influences my behavior, the basis for that is the fact that I am aware that this influence exists and the basis for that, to become aware of that, is that I’m not hiding it from myself because it will have, in order to not threaten myself in self-valuing in any other direction.
ELIAS: Correct. But this is actually something that is significant in your exploration, and being able to look at that and identify what behaviors are attached to that, it’s somewhat easier to see the superiority aspect and to identify the behaviors that are expressed with that. But the piece of your opinion, your expression, your perception is equally valid as someone else’s, that may be more difficult to identify.
MARKUS: It is, because this validity is then also based on other ideas on which I place value, and which then also to realize the mechanism through which I place value on it is arbitrary. It’s a choice, even if it’s in society commonly accepted, it doesn’t make it necessarily better.
ELIAS: Correct.
MARKUS: And I had a mighty difficult time pulling apart the tiny threads that are leading into that and I’m sure I will find even tinier leading to those. I mean, this is the ongoing process of self-discovery or self-awareness. But even if, let’s say, something that I see or believe has a high correlation with the actual physical, like assuming I can prove and ask people and say that this idea that I have of my experience and my perception correlates with the physical, it doesn’t make it more valid. Because it’s equally valid to just have a wild fantasy and experience the world in a, in a sense that is not so closely correlated to the shared physical domain.
ELIAS: Precisely. And in that, another individual may have a different perception and for them, it’s equally as relevant and real and physical to them as yours is physically real to you. That’s a very difficult concept for most individuals to accept.
MARKUS: I mean, that is a—
ELIAS: Because your senses are so geared to be absolute that it becomes very difficult to move in a direction in which you can accept that your senses are inputting information to the mechanism of your perception, but someone else’s senses are giving them entirely different information.
MARKUS: I think one of the things that I’ve discovered and that I’m still dealing with is that I believe that in the physical environment there are some aspects like, let’s say, touching a wall or the existence of a wall through which you can’t walk, that are hard to argue with and where, let’s say our mechanism of a physical body will provide people with largely similar results. Like there is wall, walk straight ahead and what will happen? I think this is something—
ELIAS: You’re going to hit the wall.
MARKUS: Right. And it will happen for anyone, because the sensory mechanisms have some – yeah, I don’t know how to describe it – some similar mechanisms built in that are hard to ignore in some situations. Like the existence of matter into which… But from this, like from being used to touching a glass and assuming and kind of asserting that it’s actually there for other people as well, if they also touch it in this place they will find they have something, there is a whole other spectrum where the ideas of the physical or where the perception of the physical isn’t direct, sensual input but it’s more like hearsay or it’s distant physical input. Like you see something in a distance and this is not the same as touching it.
And then there are ideas of the physical like, let’s say, the current Ukrainian war or Israel war or even what the American president does, which for most people is not direct input, and the extent of projection, of personal projection that goes into that, like your own ideas influencing the perception of that: this is tremendous and this is something that I had underestimated. Like it’s almost you see a photo of the president in a newspaper or on a website or whatever, together with a headline and maybe some text, and I think I can even generalize that or I will say I assumed implicitly, because I didn’t think of it and I wasn’t enough aware of it, you treat it in a way just the same as touching a wall. Like your idea that you create or my idea that I create from observing this newspaper and the idea that I touch a wall have the same level of quote “reality,” while one is entirely malleable and influenced by opinion and expectation and projection of own fears and whatnot, while the other is more like touching a wall in the direction of effect, but they are structurally entirely different. Even though they come through the sensory system, like the eye, and I can touch the newspaper.
ELIAS: And in that, if another individual would approach you and express to you that there was no war in the Ukraine because it ended and that the president of the United States was neutralized, let us say, now those are – as you said – things that are farther away from you and therefore there is more leeway than if you are expressing, “There is a wall. You can’t walk through it. If you keep walking, you’re going to bump into it.” But then there is the aspect of the other individual removing you from the equation entirely. Meaning that, that they express that they never met you (chuckles) and that you weren’t there to tell them that there was a wall there. And in their reality, that’s true.
MARKUS: I agree.
ELIAS: Which that is, I would say, a difficult piece for many individuals. I can see that you have been working on this piece of acceptance of differences quite a bit, and therefore it may not be as difficult for you as it would be for another individual. What I would say might be challenging for you is if you were to encounter someone that is very heated or very, in your terms, very opinionated and won’t allow you to change the subject. That keeps coming back to the subject that they want to express, and that in that, that might be more challenging as a scenario in order to keep directing yourself and also not be engaging in a particular direction that you don’t want to be engaging.
MARKUS: I mean I agree. It’s not that I’m saying everything is easy-peasy.
ELIAS: Oh, I understand.
MARKUS: And it’s just, let’s say that compared to other people I think I have a lot more options. I can end the interaction. I can become aware of the differences and quote “endure” them and even be aware that I’m now enduring and doing something that I’m not actually wanting, because maybe for some reason I don’t see a valid choice that would let me change it. Otherwise I know that my, that the way I express things, even if I express a disagreement with their facts, affects them in their, let’s say intensity. I think I’ve learned over time to express differing opinions in a discussion in a way that doesn’t threaten people as much, so they won’t push back as hard. And this is like a factor, for instance, which I can engage. I’m not saying that I’m actually so self-aware that I’m thinking about these details and making these choices deliberately every time in a perfect sense, but the whole exploration in itself moves in a direction to make, for example, such an encounter or even reading on Twitter, X or on the web opinions that are or about quote “facts” that would have affected me much more previously, is becoming much easier. And I’m developing more and more leverage to steer such experiences in a direction that is more of what I want, even if it’s maybe not entirely what I think I want.
ELIAS: I very much understand and I tremendously am acknowledging of you, because you are moving in a direction in which, for the most part, you are able to direct yourself in the manner that you want and that is definitely worthy of acknowledgment.
And in that, I would say that it’s also an example that the more you move in that direction, the more aware you are, you don’t have to work at it. It begins to come naturally more and more. It’s not as time-consuming or difficult to be aware of yourself and aware of what you’re doing and aware of what you’re choosing, even in relation to acceptance. It’s a matter of moving to the point that you are aware of yourself enough to not be reactive.
That piece is what is tremendously affecting and important. In not being reactive, then you can be in a position in which you can make choices that you want and you can be accepting in different situations that could be or were previously challenging. They become not challenging and it’s not difficult to engage those situations and be accepting.
MARKUS: Ah, yes. Certainly. It’s like – you may remember, but in one of our last sessions or maybe many when I started exploration of the self-awareness thing, I have told you that I had long lists of things that I could be aware of, like not reacting and being present and here and now, and being aware of where the attention is and being aware that everything that I do is a constant choice, etc., etc. and this was like trying to overdo it. It wasn’t practical. It wasn’t really possible. And I, over time I found out that it also wasn’t necessary, and that a bit like maybe even learning to drive a car.
ELIAS: Ah!
MARKUS: Where you have initially to intentionally and consciously manage all those factors: “Will I turn on the light?” and “Here’s the brake,” and “What does this traffic sign mean?” etc., etc. It becomes automatic. And it’s interesting that basically not being automatic as in pre-self-aware can be an automatic thing too. Which is kind of fascinating, that this self-awareness—
ELIAS: I would say that’s an excellent analogy, because that’s precisely what I am speaking of. That it’s not difficult to be aware. It’s not difficult to be accepting. What is challenging initially is being aware of when you are reactive and why.
MARKUS: I remember times and actually I disagree with you, because it is difficult to come to the point. Like you could say it’s difficult from not being able to drive a car to eventually drive a car well. And it caused me, and maybe it’s just a thing about myself because I’m a Sumari and truth etc., etc., it cost me considerable effort to get to this point. But it’s worth, it’s worth, it’s always been worth, it’s always been like the effortless effort, like the effort that is fun is less effort than non-fun things that you, that feel like an effort. But it’s interesting. It’s like, you’re right, it’s actually a pretty good analogy because like driving a car, when you have enough experience, you can do it automatically and still have the situational awareness and find the cues that prompt you to actually consciously engage, or even automatically engage in the correct direction. And I find that with for example discussions when somebody brings up a topic, I don’t have to monitor the discussion or the conversation in a sense that I all the time try to steer it in a direction in which I want to have it. I just get the prompting that, “Oh, something is going a bit off the rails here (Elias chuckles) and what options do I have to make my choices or steer that?” Because the other person is most of the time on fully automatic anyway. So one person making conscious choices is usually able to steer a conversation anyway.
ELIAS: I would agree. I would definitely agree. But you have to be aware of yourself in doing that, as you have expressed. And that also, I would agree, requires practice. But this is what I have expressed to people in general for quite some time, that with practice it becomes more automatic and easier. And that’s what most people are looking for: easy.
Now; there are a number of people, such as yourself and others, that are not necessarily looking for easy. They’re looking for truth and efficiency.
MARKUS: Yes, in my case definitely. And I think—
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: — the easy is a problem because I’m kind of looking at easy too. I like to say in business there’s an intelligent way of laziness, if you kind of consider the effort that goes into the whole process. Like you at times may have to work a bit in order to be able to be more lazy later, because you simplify a process or you’ve learned something. And once you’ve learned it, it’s in the long term, the effort is a lot less because the outcome outbalances the effort that you have to put into the project initially.
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: And I think I’m one of the guys who… No, not in your project. I’m just fascinated about finding out how this works and how it works basically in plain – or how the mechanisms are hidden in plain sight and… But I understand that not everybody is fascinated by that, and also not so entirely willing to go through the practice and the initial—
ELIAS: Correct.
MARKUS: — efforts.
ELIAS: Because I would say that most people are more comfortable with repetition. And in that, they don’t have to evaluate. They simply have to follow the repetition.
MARKUS: Well, this is basically what you years back called the autopilot and I think there’s nothing wrong with that.
ELIAS: Correct. There isn’t anything wrong with that.
MARKUS: I meant our whole society over thousands of years has developed mostly on autopilot, if I am observing that correctly.
ELIAS: I would agree. I would definitely agree. And then there are those that are in positions to, in a manner of speaking, lead. They’re not, they’re not necessarily dictating. They’re simply leading in relation to innovation, which is where your industry comes from.
MARKUS: It’s also amazing that this is one of the realizations that people who, let’s say for lack of a better word, developed a tremendous intelligence and understanding in one field can be totally lacking self-awareness on the personal level.
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: Like this is… These are not general, let’s say not general abilities. They may be… I think you once were talking about the concept of compartmentalization.
ELIAS: Yes. Yes.
MARKUS: And I think those abilities can be compartmentalized heavily.
ELIAS: Yes, I would agree. Most definitely.
MARKUS: Yeah, well I’m—
ELIAS: And people are also very good at compartmentalizing and not even recognizing that that’s what they’re doing.
MARKUS: I think I once read a session where you mentioned compartmentalization and then said this topic was too advanced to even go deeper into it. I don’t know if you—
ELIAS: You are correct.
MARKUS: — if you explained it in more detail later and I just missed the session, but could you or would you be willing to go into that a bit? Because it’s something that’s—
ELIAS: Very well.
MARKUS: — kind of new to me, even though I brought up the word just now.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) I would say that compartmentalization is more complex than most people generally see. They see it as placing subjects in certain positions, but that’s as far as they see, is simply this actual compartmenting of different subjects and actions and sometimes experiences. Not as much with experiences. Generally speaking, it’s with concepts and ideas. But—
MARKUS: But what did you mean by that? Or can you give an example or…?
ELIAS: Of which?
MARKUS: Of the way people see it usually, like in which they—
ELIAS: Very well.
MARKUS: — acknowledge—
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: — it already, just to create a starting point for the exploration.
ELIAS: I would say that how people view compartmentalization is they look at a subject or they see many subjects and in a manner of speaking, figuratively, what they do with them is put them in boxes. These are their compartments for different subjects. And in that, they know that this subject is in this box and that subject is in another box, and they can access those boxes when it’s important or when it’s necessary. Or they can put certain subjects in those boxes that they put away. They put them on a shelf and they don’t pay attention to those boxes any longer. Those boxes are to stay in a direction in which they’re not looked at. They’re not questioned. They’re not touched. They simply have been put away.
Now; in relation to that, people don’t actually look at what’s in those boxes and there is much more in those boxes than a simple subject. That it’s not one subject, it’s many subjects. It’s about everything that contributes to a particular subject. Compartmentalizing is an action that people use to push away and there are many factors that go into pushing away a particular subject. In this, this also lends itself to reactiveness, to strong and harsh opinions, to moving in black and white directions and not evaluating what is influencing those behaviors, because people don’t want to look at those behaviors. They don’t want to look at the subjects that contribute to behaviors.
Now; there are many people presently that think that they have looked at the subject of compartmentalizing and they think that they understand it all and that they are beyond that. I would say that for most people, the subject of compartmentalization is something that could be examined through their entire life and perhaps never be completed because there are so many aspects of it. It all has to do with your experiences. It’s not simply concept. It’s concept mixed with the experiences that you have, and not just one experience but experiences throughout your life, and how they have influenced you and how they have affected your behaviors.
And that brings you then to the subject of behavior, which is another ball of string in itself because there are so many factors that affect an individual’s behavior and in many situations and with many behaviors, the individual doesn’t even know why they behave in the manner that they behave. This is also a reason to become more self-aware, because in the bottom line, so to speak, of all of this, the purpose of becoming more self-aware is to aid yourself in being able to see more of your choices and to have the clarity to be able to choose not only what you want but what is the most beneficial for you in any situation in any moment.
And in that, all of these things are a part of what influences your choices. Compartmentalizing has to do with those parts of your experiences that are difficult to look at and that because they are difficult, they are put in those boxes so that you don’t have to look at them. Do you understand?
MARKUS: I’m not sure. Can you give one of the most common examples of what such a box would…? I mean, depending on—
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: — how you would prefer—
ELIAS: Yes.
MARKUS: — to continue. I could try to give an example of what I think it is, but—
ELIAS: You can, and I will offer an example also. Therefore offer an example of what you think it is.
MARKUS: I think the way I’ve used the term maybe and from what I took from you is like in various aspects of life or various quote “roles” that you play, like being a husband or being a “professional,” quote, seeing yourself as a “professional” in work, you develop specific behaviors which may even be very different. Like you may attach the idea of aggressiveness and use of force or even use of manipulation to one of those roles, and once at one point in your life this has crystalized into an idea of what a professional does and how he behaves, and the same for maybe being a husband or father or even sports. There may be people who approach sports in an entirely different way as being a neighbor or… Is that..? Would those be…?
ELIAS: Yes. Yes. And I would say I will give you another example.
MARKUS: Yes, please.
ELIAS: That an individual as a youngling or perhaps even an adolescent may be told by teachers or parents or perhaps not even parents, perhaps a different relative, a grandparent or an aunt or uncle, that it’s improper or that it’s inappropriate to voice their opinion because they’re a child or they’re an adolescent. They’re not an adult and therefore they’re being told to be somewhat silent, and they’re not encouraged to share.
Now, that individual becomes an adult. They don’t think about that any longer. They’re not entertaining that idea that they should be silent. They see in their community, their friends, their interactions and their experience with other individuals, they’re not being silent. But just as you expressed, they may not be sharing because they might not think that their opinion or what they think and feel is as valid as other people, and therefore they don’t share. And do they know why they’re not sharing? Not necessarily. They simply feel uncomfortable. They do see it at some point, or at the very least some of them do, that there is something in their opinion wrong with the factor that they’re not sharing but they don’t necessarily know why, because they don’t remember. And the reason they don’t remember is because they compartmentalized that. They put that in a box and they shoved it on the shelf and they don’t remember now why they’re not sharing, why their opinion is not as valid or important as everyone else’s. That’s an example of compartmentalizing.
MARKUS: Okay.
ELIAS: But yes, roles are also, roles are also a good example of compartmentalizing.
MARKUS: And to carry your example further, they may at some point even learn to voice their opinion in some way, but then they may observe a young one voicing their opinion and doing the same that happened to them.
ELIAS: And do the same thing. Yes. And do the same thing, and not even think about it.
MARKUS: Because… Previously I would have said because they have built a truth about this, like an idea of what things are supposed to be. Hm. Interesting.
ELIAS: Correct. Yes. And in that, it would actually (inaudible)—
MARKUS: Oh, so compartmentalizing—
ELIAS: — what it’s supposed (inaudible)
MARKUS: Yeah. Go ahead.
ELIAS: Actually not necessarily what it’s supposed to be, but that’s how you view it. And in that, that becomes your perception and therefore yes, you repeat what was expressed to you.
MARKUS: So compartments are, in a way, boxes filled with truths about a topic or an area of life?
ELIAS: They’re not truths. They are absolutes that you’ve created based on experience.
MARKUS: Ah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, not the (inaudible) truths, but ideas of things that you think are true.
ELIAS: Yes. Yes.
MARKUS: Interesting. I think this will inspire me too (Elias laughs)… in the future. This is what, why basically I was coming into this session, conversation, with the intention to get more directions or inspirations for different forms of explorations which I may not be aware of. Like I might… I have my, those topics that I’m working with and I will keep them, but I’m sure there are tons of things hidden in plain sight that I don’t even think about thinking or where I don’t even get the idea of exploring, and this may… This seems to be an interesting thing. Like I remember when you first brought up interconnectedness with me in my sessions.
ELIAS: Yes. Yes.
MARKUS: This must be three years ago, four years ago, and it’s just now, like just over the last half year that I’m getting glimpses of it—
ELIAS: I understand.
MARKUS: Oh, this… Oh, this… (Elias chuckles) Like I mean, parts of—
ELIAS: This is—
MARKUS: Yes. Go. Go ahead.
ELIAS: This is the subject. This is the idea. (Chuckles) I’m very familiar with that realization.
MARKUS: Ah, I can imagine. Because back then—
ELIAS: But I would be—
MARKUS: I had no idea what you were talking about. I mean… (Elias chuckles) Yeah, but that’s the point.
ELIAS: But I would say, with individuals such as yourself, I’m aware at times when the person doesn’t actually understand what I’m saying to them but I also know that they will, eventually.
MARKUS: Yeah, this definitely happened with… And I’m just at the—
ELIAS: But that—
MARKUS: — at the brink of developing a tiny bit of an idea. Like I mean, in some places where you explained it, it’s hard to recognize in actual experience because one time you said there may be a person in China who draws a dragon while I have—
ELIAS: Correct.
MARKUS: — (inaudible) the construction machine, which I associated with a dragon. And this is hard to recognize because I will never hear of this person and it will be hard to see that there is a connection at all. But I’m seeing like… perceiving experiences in a more abstract way. And then I find in my environment that people are making abstractly, while they’re practically very different experiences, they are, abstractly they’re dealing with the same topic.
ELIAS: Yes. Yes.
MARKUS: And actually I had one or… one example or two even, where it was very obvious because I’ve read from Mary that she had problems with her knee. And she was specifically in this one mail referring to a baker cyst, and I swear I had never in my whole life heard this word. And eight weeks later, my girlfriend, partner, said she has knee problems and the orthopedic doctor diagnosed her with potential baker cyst. (Elias chuckles) And I was so, “What?!!”
ELIAS: (Laughs) And there you have your example of precisely what you were expressing you would never see.
MARKUS: In this, this example was very obvious. And then I kind of, with dealing with light knee problems myself and a friend of mine has a problem with a finger joint, and this is all within let’s say three months or so. And these are examples that were crystalizing and I’m seeing… A knee is something different than a finger joint, but it’s both a joint and it’s both people are going to the doctor and getting their diagnosis, and some choose to have surgery and some don’t, but it’s like previously I wouldn’t have recognized a connection in that sense, especially not the guy with the finger joint.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) I would agree, and I would say that this is an excellent example of that interconnectedness. And I would say that Michael is not the first one that was engaging in this direction. But in that, in consciousness, that interconnectedness is affecting. You make the choice yourself as to whether you will connect in certain manners, but you make the choice in relation to what influences fit your situation, and what you are doing or what you’re addressing to. And another piece to that, therefore you see this is more complex or multi-layered also, which everything in your reality is, in that it’s also a matter of your desire. And remember: I’ve expressed many times your desire doesn’t always move you in comfortable directions. It moves you in the directions that are genuine to you and at times it may move you in directions that are uncomfortable because you aren’t making comfortable choices.
(The timer for the end of the session rings)
MARKUS: I’m aware. This is one of my—
ELIAS: And yet another reason for being developing your self-awareness, which again I acknowledge you my friend in listening and in moving in these directions.
MARKUS: It’s a fascinating process and like you just said, with uncomfortable experiences. I caught myself multiple times in uncomfortable experiences where I’ve said to myself, “I don’t care what this is. I’m just interested in finding out what…” This is my intent or desire, the way I see it. I’m just finding out how this physical existence, physical focus, mechanism of being human, how you want call it, I want to find out more how this works. And if this helps me, I’m all… I’m all willing to experience that because if the outcome is a greater self-awareness or a greater understanding of myself or how this incredible mechanism of this planet or this dimension works, this will be good for me.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) I would very much acknowledge that, my friend.
MARKUS: Thank you very much, my friend. I think I hear the buzzer.
ELIAS: You are exceptionally welcome.
MARKUS: (Chuckles) Thank you.
ELIAS: And I shall tremendously be looking forward to our next conversation, perhaps not so far in the future. (Chuckles)
MARKUS: Ah, I think this next one will be closer. Thank you very much. I enjoyed this interaction tremendously.
ELIAS: In sublime love, I offer you sublime love and precious friendship that is very much shared. Until our next meeting, au revoir.
MARKUS: Au revoir.
(Elias departs after 1 hour 32 minutes)
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