Ukraine Conflict; Coming Back to the Basics; Essence Traits vs. Being Essence
“The War in Ukraine”
“The Genuine Interconnectedness of Everything”
“You Can’t Have Masses Without Individuals”
“Differences Are What Make You Unique”
“The Tremendous Importance of Not Falling into These Traps Any Longer”
“Martial Arts Analogy for the Spiral of Becoming More Aware”
“When You’re not Afraid, You Can Accomplish Anything”
“Genuine Confidence versus False Confidence”
“The More You Learn, the Less You Know”
“Every Expression of Essence Is in You”
Wednesday, September 6, 2023 (Private/Phone)
Participants: Mary (Michael) and Markus (Markus)
“At the very least, you still are continuing to not choose an apocalypse, which that’s something.”
ELIAS: Good afternoon!
MARKUS: Good nowness, my friend. Good to talk to you again.
ELIAS: (Laughs) And you also. And what news?
MARKUS: Oh well, I’ve been kind of busy with some things, nothing spectacular, nothing that would make, let’s say… I don’t have anything on my agenda that would make an agenda. I just did a couple of things and I kind of had the idea that it might be a good time to talk to you again. I listened to one of Nuno’s sessions this week and I had a few ideas going through my head recently. So, well, let’s see how we start.
ELIAS: Very well.
MARKUS: Let’s see. Since you’ve been asking, I’ve done a couple of things. One, one is quite surprising. I started studying quantum physics.
MARKUS: Which is a kind of strange occurrence because I had put it in my mind to study it on a university level, not really enlisting at a university but on YouTube, following university lectures which some of the, let’s say, more prestigious universities like M.I.T. or Stanford are putting their lectures on line so you could follow them as if you’re there. And I don’t know what struck me. I have said it’s I have set my mind on completing the M.I.T. course with, at least at a level as I understand what they are talking about, including all the math. Which is certainly a bit challenging. Well, I’m underexaggerating. It’s quite challenging, but it’s quite (Elias laughs) funny. It turned out like I leave work at two in the afternoon, to say, “Now I go home and have some fun,” and then I listen to university lectures (laughs) about quantum physics.
MARKUS: Yeah. Okay. So that’s something that I’ve been doing. Another thing I’ve been doing is I was searching, researching the background on the war in Ukraine, which has also been interesting. Like researching it on a quite, let’s say, also academic level with reading academic papers about the background and the Maidan revolution in 2014 which led to the current war. And this has also been interesting, especially because I know a Ukrainian who has fled to Germany and who I’ve helped last year even setting foot here in Germany and he is now helping me with a bit with my business. This has been an interesting, let’s say an interesting pastime for some time when, let’s see—
MARKUS: Both of those have been, are, let’s say things that stick out from my usual routine, like going to the pool in summer or doing my regular work or doing a bit of financial investments and reading sessions or listening to sessions, so… Yeah, that’s what I’ve been up to. So…
ELIAS: So this individual that is a friend of yours from Ukraine is now living in Germany and is working with you?
MARKUS: Kind of. He arrived in Germany basically when the war started. Like he fled with his whole family, with wife and two kids, in the first days after Russia invaded, and even at a time when many Ukrainians weren’t allowed to leave the country any more. So he hired someone who helped him get across the border and arrived in Germany, like many did. And his wife is living here. She’s married to the brother of my fiancée, so that’s how I got in contact with him.
And initially I offered to help him a bit, like I… He had a translation business in the Ukraine, but he’s also doing stuff in information technology, like programming websites and that kind of stuff. And initially, since he couldn’t bring along much material – they fled, four people with a few suitcases in a normal passenger car – so I gave him some hardware to help him settle, and even initially through a contact that I had made, he got an employment for a year. And now he quit there and is starting his own business, like kind of an entrepreneur. And I helped him with, let’s say, getting the whole business side started, like business registration and taxes and those kinds of things.
And these discussions led to a situation where he offered that he could do one thing or another for me, like quote “in return,” although I didn’t require that. And so we recently had met and did some things or discussed a few things in relation to marketing and what could be done to improve my business. So that’s how we… It’s a rather loose contact, but I think there’s more behind this, because initially when I heard that the wife of the brother of my fiancée had someone coming from Ukraine, I was unusually strongly prompted to help this person. It’s like I had a general idea, like many Germans at that time, to help Ukrainian refugees. But I was rather insistent to get in contact with this person, with Roman. I think there may be more behind this, like other focuses and all that kind of stuff, because we get along very well and it’s more like even let’s say, at least from my perspective, brotherly feelings or someone you know for a long time, etc.
ELIAS: Ah. Yes. I would agree, and I would say that you are correct.
MARKUS: It’s quite… It’s been more or less quite obvious. Even in the beginning I was wondering why I… Like I contacted the brother of my fiancée about if this person needs any help and there wasn’t quite, quite… Actually there wasn’t any feedback, like “Yeah, if we need something we’ll get in touch.” And nothing happened. And I have been, like I said, insistent, like asked him two or three times if they need something. And eventually there was, a contact was made and we got along rather quickly, or well rather quickly, although this is kind of independent from my study or from my interest in the background of the Ukrainian conflict because I avoid talking politics with him, also for the reason because I think my political views on that situation may not quite resonate very well with someone who just fled the country because (Elias laughs) it was invaded from Russia. But that’s entirely also not necessary. It’s more like a totally independent kind of research.
ELIAS: And what have you been presenting to yourself in relation to that?
MARKUS: Like the political situations and the—
ELIAS: Yes. Yes. And what is your assessment at this point?
MARKUS: Well, the assessment is now in a more nuanced way what it had already been before, that it’s not like it’s presented in the news, that evil and bad Russians invaded innocent and entirely pure Ukraine. If you look at the 2014 Maidan, it seems like there were or there are actually forces within the Ukraine which were quite interested in provoking this conflict because they… they thought it would be beneficial for them, like it would increase the speed or help them get into the European Union or NATO.
And once this got rolling, I think there are even strong forces within the United States which like this conflict quite a lot for a variety of reasons. So… and this even goes back. I’ve read some articles or a couple of articles, even from like high-profile Americans like former ambassadors of America in Russia, where they say this whole process goes back into the 1990s when the German reunification [occurred] and when the west promised to not move NATO further east. And when subsequently more and more countries were incorporated into NATO, and this increased pressure, and Russia had over the years or decades made clear that there would be red lines, or that the last red line would have been moving Ukraine into NATO and bring NATO weapons basically on Ukraine’s border next to Russia, and that this was basically the boiling point or the breaking point or the straw that broke the camel’s neck, as they say, which eventually provoked Russia into doing this. So there’s also… It’s always two sides to a conflict, I mean.
ELIAS: Yes, there is. I would say that that is quite interesting that you have researched this and given yourself that information, which most of the actual people, the population of either country, are not aware of these factors. But I would say that a piece of this also is, in a manner of speaking, the continuation of the cold war, but in a manner that is very secretive and is less obvious. And therefore it doesn’t seem that that’s what happening, but there has been a considerable expression of distrust in relation to the country of the United States in association with Russia and continuously moving in the direction of villainizing them. That’s been happening since before the second world war, but after the second world war it became very, very strong.
MARKUS: I’m seeing this. As I said, some of those people even go back to Eisenhower and his speech about the military-industrial complex and how, how these people or these forces within the United States are interested in keeping the United States’ as they call it “the forever war.” Because those groups will profit whenever there’s a war somewhere.
And also, I mean apparently the country, even within Ukraine there are all kinds of separate and opposing forces, and the whole country, in a way, is the same kind of mess as the Middle East, where countries like Iran and Iraq and Saudi Arabia have been at war for like forever, about things who have probably been forgotten long ago, just because one thing leads to the other and whatever. And within Ukraine there seem to have been similar forces, even within this Maidan 2014, where forces, apparently forces within the Ukraine murdered some of the protesters in order to provoke violence and provoke this process of ousting the then-President, which was more Russia-friendly, and replacing him with someone who is more EU-friendly, which provokes Russia also, etc. So it’s…
And I’m in no way saying that Russians are saints. They had their hands in this certainly also, like in the separate, in the separatists’ movement in Donbas. And yeah, it’s basically just maybe what came out from it, is something that you have said or that made me aware of what you are saying all the time, that the small things are leading to the big things. Like I saw a documentary about Ukraine where they were going through all of Ukraine, like the western and the eastern parts, and Odessa where there had been a massacre at some point. And if you listen to people there in the interviews, basically everybody has lost somebody to someone. So in a way, everybody has reason to hate somebody somewhere in some kind of combination, so that’s a situation you can’t untangle as long as you believe in revenge or violence.
And the only way to untangle this would be, let’s say, a profound… how do I put that? A profound will to make peace and to… forgiveness. And unless you can find that, there will be a war of some kind in any kind, even if Russia even pulled out, then there would be a separatist war between the… then in the western part and whatever. So…
ELIAS: But it moves, it moves deeper than an expression of forgiveness. It’s a matter of a lack of trust. And the trust has been so tremendously broken that in relation to Russia, that it’s a matter of they don’t know who to trust any longer.
MARKUS: You mean Putin and Russia?
MARKUS: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It’s entirely my understanding also.
ELIAS: Yes, because the… The trust with them, THEIR trust has been so broken, and a lot of that is attributed to the United States. That they have broken trust time and time and time again. And they have moved in the direction of vilifying the Russians for over a century.
MARKUS: Yeah, and sometimes even let’s say, let’s say even light figures like President Obama had been quite openly insulting them, like saying at some point Russia is just a local force on the decline, it’s no longer a world power. And I mean, you can say that but this is, versus a country that has its pride, incredible stupidity because if you do that again and again and again and again versus a person, versus an animal, versus a company, or versus a country, they will come back and show you that they are not irrelevant or weak or idiots or whatever.
ELIAS: Correct. And that is part of what is fueling this war. What people don’t understand is that there’s more to it than what the presentment on the surface is. And in that, unfortunately the super-powers are still vilifying Russia. And in that, there is tremendous outpouring of the public because of it.
MARKUS: The interesting thing is that the Americans currently have a presidential candidate, like a nephew of President Kennedy, and the son of a presidential Kennedy, another Kennedy, and he seems to be understanding that in some way and seems to at least express the intention of ending this forever war and finding peaceful solutions and not vilifying Russia, although, well, it’s obviously a talk within presidential candidates. But I’ve seen long-form podcasts and interviews with him and he seems more of a genuine person than… or what he says seems to be more like a genuine expression of what he actually thinks or believes, compared to the other presidential candidates they currently have. So it will be interesting what the American public or what people of America, if they are, will be willing to vote for him or whom they will vote for, or in that regard what they will be voting for.
ELIAS: I would agree. I would say it will be interesting and that this is a piece that is a part of this movement not only with the United States, but it involves many other countries, and in that, how they see the country and the people of Russia. And in that, I would have a tendency to agree with you, my friend, that there is only so long that you can continue to beat a dog before it turns and bites you.
MARKUS: Mm-hm. And I mean it’s not… Yeah. I agree with what you’re saying.
ELIAS: And in that, I would say that this is a matter of perception and moving in a direction of becoming more self-aware, as I have been expressing, and in that, recognizing the genuine interconnectedness of everything, and how that is manipulated in many capacities. It is an interesting phenomenon that people are so interested in what they recognize as the few elites in the world and so concerned with how they affect the world and all of their conspiracy theories about how these individuals are so affecting. And in that, it matters not how much I express that they’re not (laughs) as affecting as people think they are, and that in this, they’re not paying attention to what is directly in front of them.
MARKUS: I would say they are, and elites is a pretty good word because it’s not so loaded, not like Illuminati or whatever, but I think the elites are quite affecting. And I wasn’t aware of, I certainly wasn’t aware of that before the pandemic. And the pandemic, I even remember that when initially around the covid process you were using the word propaganda—
MARKUS: — in terms of the media. I thought this was a bit farfetched, but after those three years, I have certainly learned the power of the media and how it shapes perception. And this time, it was kind of easier for me to dig into the whole Ukraine process because I have put incredible efforts into understanding how this whole covid thing came together and the mechanisms are quite similar. And what I would like to add to what you just said is how people are not aware of how they themselves are the tools that give the elites power.
MARKUS: Like if the elites shape the information, they shape your perception and then you will act and you will act like puppets on a string, like billions of puppets on these strings of information that shape your, that shape everyone’s perception individually. Which makes people act in unison, like where people had seen with the Nazi Germany. And in other cases, like where everybody thought okay, the vaccine is the way to go and this view, this among other inferences, was shaped through influences in the media. And with the war, it’s just the same. If all the media tells you the Ukrainians are the innocent and Putin is evil, then you will vote for the people who will perpetuate this war. And so everybody with their perception, which is influenced and if you are not self-aware enough, you don’t recognize how influenced you are, become the tool of the elites to pursue their own ends.
ELIAS: Correct. Correct. But that was what I was expressing initially, that all they have to do is make a suggestion and then it’s the people that carry it out. It’s the people that create all of the power behind that and move in directions of making something important, and following in directions that are, are (pause) generated by motivations that they think are good. And that’s what continues to motivate them and perpetuate these directions that are actually counterproductive.
MARKUS: To each one, to themselves then.
ELIAS: Yes. And that is the reason that it is so tremendously important that people ARE becoming more self-aware and that they are not paying so much attention to what is happening with a government or with these people or those people, but what are they doing? How is each individual participating and what are they perpetuating? And what are they aligning with? Because each individual, as I have expressed from the very beginning of this forum, is what makes up the masses. You can’t have masses without individuals. And in that, that’s the reason that every individual is so important and has so much weight, because they ARE what is making up the masses in every direction. And in that, what is their evidence that someone is a villain and someone else is a victim? And in that, what is their place in supporting either one?
MARKUS: Hm. And also, I think this helped me, had poked me a bit in the direction of thinking about, as you said, the small things like the ice cubes and yelling at your kids, etc. If these are familiar reactions on a personal level, you are far more inclined to let yourself influence or show understanding or support for the same kind of reaction on a national level. While if you are used on a personal level so say, “Okay, let’s think. What have we here? What’s everybody’s perception? And let’s not react, and let’s see what we can do and where we can find a balance and whatever,” then you’re less inclined to a news headline or short interview clip when someone calls you to action because “Those are the bad ones and these are the good ones and we have to help the good ones and there is no time to ask any questions.” This is how the small propagate into the big.
ELIAS: Precisely. Precisely. And in that, it’s also a matter of evaluating in relation to what is directly affecting and moving in the direction of that genuine acceptance of differences, and in that, not making judgments about differences, but recognizing that differences are what make you all unique, and rather than moving in the direction of being threatened by them. You don’t all have to be the same, but sameness is what you have learned and what you’ve been taught to trust, and difference is what you have learned and been taught to not trust. And in that, that’s all that’s necessary for you to move in directions of perpetuating that lack of trust. And that is precisely what I have been expressing to all of you about the tremendous importance of not falling into these traps any longer. Which will require more time (Markus laughs) and more trauma and more conflict and more destruction, but I will express again that at the very least, you still are continuing to not choose an apocalypse, (Markus laughs) which that’s something.
MARKUS: Okay. (Elias laughs) I appreciate that. (Elias laughs) The interesting thing is one that you have like opened a couple of… with what you just said, a couple of avenues in which to continue this conversation and just let me see in which direction I am prompting myself. (Elias laughs) Let me roll or let me roll into our last session again. One of the things you said makes it easy to connect to the end of that session, and then let’s crawl into that a bit more deeply. Because one thing I found, or I found myself not wondering about but thinking about or… yeah, wondering about, is at the end of our last session, I was speaking about confidence and how I found how much confidence, like self-confidence, or probably would even call it self-acceptance or… helps with this whole process of shifting. Last time I said it would help like with accepting. How did we get to that? Yeah, about thinking about oneself not as rigid or not looking at identity as such a rigid concept, because the more confident you are, the more you can accept that there are variations in your identity, whatever they may be. And I’m also finding that these… the issue of differences has a lot to do with confidence, because the more confident a person is or the more confident I find myself to be, the easier it is to accept difference because it’s like—
MARKUS: — in a way the threat is becoming small in relation to the… to one’s own strengths. Like the more strong or confident you are, the smaller the same threat may seem as compared to a person which is less confident. So the threat—
MARKUS: — loses its sting and this also makes it easier to accept things because when they are, when different expressions are no longer as threatening because in relation to who you are and to what you know about yourself, the easier it is basically accept the difference.
ELIAS: Correct. That is most definitely correct. And that’s also the reason that it is so important to be becoming self-aware, because the more self-aware you are, the more confident you will become. Because the more you learn to trust yourself AND the more you realize what your own power is – and that’s a big piece of what influences your confidence.
MARKUS: Yeah. Well, like all your stuff, one ties into the other. So it’s like I find myself likening this to a spiral, like you go through all the topics, like let’s say just a few of them like acceptance and then noticing and appreciation and then choices and whatnot, and then you arrive at the same point, like you arrive at the topic of acceptance again, but with the background of the first circle you’ve made through all those topics, so you’re no longer in the same place. And then you or then I develop a deeper understanding of acceptance and a deeper understanding of noticing and then a deeper understanding of appreciation and then a deeper understanding of how the choices work. And it’s like a spiral that widens where you go, so the same topics, a few teachings, and these are just a few that came to mind—
ELIAS: I very much agree—
MARKUS: — again and again and again, and the circle gets wider and more powerful and more powerful, and you had an understanding of choices the first time and a deeper understanding the second time and a better proficiency to actually engage, and then the third time. And so you go on and on and on and on, but it’s like a spiral into the sky or into deeper understanding and ability to enact these things.
ELIAS: I very much agree. And this also, I would say, is very important because if people actually want to be expressing more and more and more awareness, and they want to be expressing more power, let us say, it is very much as I have expressed to some individuals that move in the direction of developing their own directions in relation to becoming more powerful or more as essence. This is the new fashion.
MARKUS: (Laughs) I have it on my list. (Laughs) I have it on my list. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: Very well. Well, let me tell you, my friend, that I liken this to martial arts. Because in different martial arts, there are generally levels that you engage and you learn and you aspire to the next level and the next level and the next level. BUT when an individual accomplishes all of the levels and they move to the last level and they accomplish that and they have become a master, what do they do? They go back to the first level, and they cycle through them all again. And they keep doing that throughout their life because of what you have precisely explained in your spiral. And that is more true than you even realize, that this is the nature of becoming more aware. And the more aware you become and the more you know, the more you DO move back to the beginning and as you move back to the beginning, you engage that with different eyes. You engage the beginning with a different awareness because now you’ve moved to the level of a master, and therefore when you re-engage the beginning, you’re looking at that from a very different perspective. And you’re correct, you keep moving in that spiral and it moves deeper and deeper and deeper, and you become more and more and more self-aware AND powerful.
And the more powerful you are, the more confident you are, but that confidence is not what you are taught to express in confidence. A confidence of knowing. And that knowing is not expressed in a manner to make someone else smaller. That confidence is a knowing of your power, and when you know your power and you ARE confident in it, what you are drawn to do is to build up others, not pull them down.
MARKUS: Yeah, because the dissing of others—
MARKUS: — or the diminishing of others is basically just it makes us seem larger in comparison. It’s in, like I said, the threat in relation to the confidence, it looks larger in relation, the confidence is smaller and also if you receive someone else and you make him seem smaller, you seem taller to yourself in the sense of confidence.
ELIAS: But that is a false confidence.
MARKUS: Of course.
ELIAS: When you are moving in a direction of breaking down someone else to make yourself larger or to make yourself more important, that’s a false confidence. And in that, that comes from fear. And when you are genuinely confident, then that fear ebbs away and you’re not afraid. And when you’re not afraid, you can accomplish anything.
And in that, the more you’re not afraid, the more you will be inclined to lift up others around you, and to encourage them in that direction of confidence also. Because no one wants to be alone.
ELIAS: You are—
MARKUS: Because it’s also not fun to be in the presence of people who are not confident, because it works both ways. Like if you express yourself and they perceive that as difference, then this difference, the smaller their confidence is, the more this difference poses a threat to them, and so they’re more prone to react or defend or justify or do whatever. So the more confident they are, the more I myself can be what I am, if that’s different, without having to deal with reactions and that kind of stuff.
ELIAS: Precisely. And as I expressed, no one wants to be alone. You are social beings and the more aware you become, the more you become aware of interconnectedness with yourself and with everything else. This is not about hugging trees. (Markus laughs) This is genuine knowing of interconnectedness with expressions, with directions, with yourself, with everything else that exists. And in that, you don’t move in a direction of becoming more self-aware to isolate yourself or to be alone.
MARKUS: Yeah. Go ahead.
ELIAS: — move in a direction of becoming more self-aware to allow you to be more genuine and to be who you are. And in that, part of who you are is social and interconnected. And in that, you don’t move in these directions to be alone. You move in these directions to be you.
MARKUS: Hm. Interesting, because I enjoy being alone quite, quite a lot or quite much, so…
ELIAS: I don’t mean spending time alone. I mean being alone because you have cut yourself off and because you can’t relate to anyone and they can’t relate to you.
MARKUS: Oh yeah. The disconnection versus connected. I get the difference. Yes.
ELIAS: Yes. And in that, that’s very different from incorporating time in being alone and being comfortable in doing that.
MARKUS: Mm. Speaking of interconnectedness, this leads more into the rabbit hole of my last session (Elias laughs) or our… to the topic that had taken up quite, quite a big chunk of that session, being those metaphors of certain events and the interconnectedness within oneself or myself. And I’ve been pondering this quite a lot, but I have to admit I think I don’t understand what you were saying. And maybe the problem is the word “metaphor,” because I mean this was part of what we spoke about or what you said, looking back to some events and in hindsight seeing what they were good for, which is something that initially one didn’t see, or even at different points in the future, look back to the same event in the past and see different aspects. But what I … I don’t understand the word “metaphor” in connection with that.
ELIAS: How do you define a metaphor?
MARKUS: A metaphor would for me be kind of what you in other terms express as abstract imagery, like one thing that in essence stands for one action or one event that could be interpreted in a different way where the core is similar but the expression is different.
ELIAS: Perhaps. But I would say that a metaphor is an illustration of something.
ELIAS: Therefore when you are looking at something in the past, it can be an illustration of something in the present, or vice-versa. And in that, a metaphor is simply something that, in a manner of speaking, reflects something else. It illustrates something else.
MARKUS: Can we try to—
MARKUS: — to explain this with an example? Like a hypothetical example, or I could choose something in my past like an event of some significance and then you explain what the various forms of metaphor could be for this?
ELIAS: Very well.
MARKUS: Like I could choose, since this was an example, since we spoke about it four years back, me choosing to go back to the stock market again and opening this account with a brokerage, which led to all kinds of benefits in my field. So I can look back to that from different perspectives and see different benefits from that, but I can’t apply the idea of metaphor to it. Or I could go back far, far back, when I did choose after I ended high school a company where I did my apprenticeship, and this had far-reaching connections into my life, even in other people’s lives, like my brother. This led to my brother having a job in this company and now even his daughter and my business partner had a job there, and he and friends started a company that was related to that. If that’s maybe a good example? Or if not, then just make something up and let’s see where that leads to.
ELIAS: (Pause) Very well. I would say that how you could use a metaphor would be to look at something like your company, look at something such as your job and your, your business and the people that are employed at your business and how this person and that person that you know have been pulled into—
MARKUS: Actually, this was a business I was employed myself in. I left some time later. So at my business at the moment I don’t have employees. I’m speaking about a larger company which has influenced other people, but it’s not my company at the moment.
ELIAS: Very well. That’s a technicality.
ELIAS: I’m (laughs)—
MARKUS: All right.
ELIAS: We’re talking about a business—
ELIAS: — that has influenced many different people that you know, and that has incorporated, let us say, jobs in this business. And in that, these different individuals at different times have been pulled to this particular business, even if this is a hypothetical scenario.
ELIAS: In that, you could be looking at something in your life, some actions that you engage in your life, and how certain actions that you do at different times involve many different people.
ELIAS: And in that, you’re looking at two different scenarios, and generally speaking, one scenario will appear to be larger or more important than another, but the smaller one will appear to be a reflection of the bigger one.
Now; in this, then you can look at something such as the bigger one, and you can look at that from the perspective of your life, and how your life moves in different phases and stages and what you engage in your life. And therefore, then the bigger one becomes a metaphor for your life. It becomes an illustration. It’s something that you use as an illustration of something that’s even bigger. Your life is even bigger than the biggest of companies. And in that, you are able to take something that you do or something that’s important to you and something that you’re engaging, and you can see the correlation. You can see the reflection. You can see how that thing in your life that you’re engaging reflects something bigger.
MARKUS: I think I’m getting an idea. Like for example, if I see how I deal with your material —
MARKUS: — it’s like investing time and being in there for the long run, and maybe there even are some stagnant periods, but knowing now that in the long run it pays out handsomely. And then, using the idea of investing time and effort into this thing, applying this to another area where it may feel like I’m stagnant and drawing lessons from the earlier, from the bigger example, to the current example, like similarities. Would that be more in the direction of what you’re speaking?
ELIAS: Yes, but I would say… (Pause) Let us use a simpler example. That you and I have had conversations about you walking to work or you sitting in the cemetery and feeding squirrels.
ELIAS: And in that, you are looking at those simple actions and you’re seeing how they reflect more significant things in your life. You can see how one thing means something or is a reflection of something that could be much more complex and much deeper than simply feeding a squirrel. Feeding the squirrel is a metaphor. It’s an illustration of something else, something deeper, something larger, something more complex. You’re looking at something that is simple and how that simple thing is being expressed in other manners that may appear to be more complex.
ELIAS: Are you understanding?
MARKUS: I can work with that. I’ll take it as homework.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) Very well. I would say that actually YOU present metaphors all the time.
MARKUS: I know. (Laughs) I know.
ELIAS: (Laughs) You are a master at that, because in that, you are continuously looking into what reflects something else.
MARKUS: Mm. Yeah.
ELIAS: And what illustrates something else.
MARKUS: Like my examples, even I brought up this example of martial arts at some point, or at some point I came back, or I recently came back to remember that where I multiple times said it’s like polishing a mirror and finer, finer grain with finer, finer attitude to get a more even surface, and basically polishing the mirror of my perception and… Yeah, I get, I get what you say.
ELIAS: Yes. That’s a metaphor. It’s an illustration of something that you are expressing and that you are becoming more aware of and that is a part of your life. I would say that even moving in the direction of what you have expressed to myself, that you are exploring quantum physics now, is or could be looked as being a metaphor for your expansion.
MARKUS: I’ve been pondering that a bit because this event or this impulse or this process of me going into physics and math at that level, this came really unexpected. This is really left of field, and it caught my attention quite immediately and I’m not quite sure, or I have… Initially I wasn’t quite sure what that would mean, but I’ve developed kind of an understanding of what it could be and of course with what you just said, it’s a metaphor of my life because especially quantum physics is like going to the deeper and deeper details and the more and more you get there, the more you’ve, or the more the science of the theory shows that there is basically nothing there. (Elias laughs) It’s like the atoms aren’t there and the electrons aren’t there.
ELIAS: (Inaudible) the less you know. (Laughs)
MARKUS: Hm? Say again? Say again, please.
ELIAS: I said the more you learn, the less you know.
MARKUS: Oh, yes. Yes. (Elias laughs) This is also the spiral. Like initially acceptance and noticing and choice seems very easy and common sense, and the more those spirals stick out, the more complex and the harder to grasp and the more nuanced the whole thing gets. And so the further you progress, the more you know that you know nothing.
ELIAS: But in that, I would say it isn’t actually that you know nothing. It’s simply that you begin to realize how much more there is to know.
MARKUS: Yeah. Your knowledge grows but it shrinks in relation to what you see is possible, which initially you thought, “Oh, this is just simple,” and even you know twice as much and you see four times the horizon, and then there it goes.
ELIAS: (Laughs) I would agree. I would definitely agree. But in that also, my friend, I would say that the more that you explore and the more knowledge you have, which is important because knowledge is power, and in that, the more you keep moving in the direction of quantum physics, you will begin to recognize that what science keeps doing, which is somewhat of their track, is that they keep moving in the direction of attempting to find the smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller thing that will be the beginning or the origin or what everything stems from, is the smaller and smaller and smaller thing. And that’s not it. (Chuckles) That eventually science will discover that that’s not it at all, that they can keep moving in the direction of smaller and smaller and smaller forever, and it will not bring them to the answer.
MARKUS: Or what they seem to find is that the further you get down, the more you get into the, to the point where you just find it’s made from energy. It’s like made from nothing at times, and also it seems that there—
ELIAS: This is what I have said in the past, that when science realizes that what is the base of reality – because that’s what they’re looking for, what is the base of reality – and when they finally recognize that perception is the base of reality, they will have it.
MARKUS: We’ll see. It doesn’t appear to be in my lectures yet, so I’ll have do it… (both laugh).
ELIAS: They are moving closer. They are moving closer, but they still haven’t grabbed the brass ring. (Laughs)
MARKUS: Yeah, but they’re making interesting discoveries, like even reproduceable experiments where things in the future affect things that happened before. Like they see an effect that is based on what will happen in the future, and these are interesting things to not just hear from that guy but see actually enacted in physics. So…
ELIAS: Oh definitely so. I’m not expressing by any means that what they are discovering isn’t important and isn’t valuable. It is. And it is definitely interesting to watch these discoveries and observe how people are moving in more directions of being more aware, and that is a significant part of all of this. But in their quest to discover what is the beginning, what is the base, what is the origin of everything, it’s one of those things that once again is directly in front of them and they don’t see it yet. (Chuckles) But that’s not to discount everything else that they are discovering. It’s, I would say, similar to uncovering fossils, that they give more and more and more information, and that is definitely interesting and valuable and fun.
ELIAS: And it’s definitely stimulating.
MARKUS: So let’s come to the topic of sessions recently bringing out essence. I have what may be a curious question, and it is the question: how much human traits are in essence? To explain why I’m asking, I remember Seth sessions where he was speaking about reincarnation, kind of. I’m also taking the Oversoul Seven book in a manner where when you take the reincarnations in a serialized context, like you have this life and then another, even if it’s jumping across time, that essence kind of chooses lives and life circumstances in order to, let’s say, hone certain personality traits, or in a simplified way, like if you go to the Oversoul Seven book with Joseph and the painter, when he chooses his next life and he chooses it in a form to deal with his impatience, let’s say.
Or I recently heard or read a piece of a session from someone, from Alexander, who asked you about which of his traits are essence traits, and you came up with like curiosity and spontaneity and those kinds. These things make essence sound like very human or very close to humans. While I kind of had the idea that essence is something very abstract, like if essence could have focuses in different dimensions on different planets, different aliens, extraterrestrial species, many of these traits probably don’t even have a translation in those, so—
ELIAS: That would be correct.
MARKUS: — to say essence has… Let’s just take any human trait. Let’s say curiosity, although this probably easily translates, more easily translates into all kinds of species or dimensions or whatever. But I’m wondering, like when I say or when Nuno says he wants to bring out more of essence into this experience, what’s in that package? It can’t be just a few human traits, that I would say are the core of my focus. Like if I look back in my life, I find a few things that are always there and I could assume this is essence, but on the other hand, if I also assume I have hundreds of focuses in different, let’s even say human environments, times, occupations, there must be basically, or I would assume the whole gamut of human traits in that to be expressed. Or is it indeed so? That let’s say if I take a focus as a Japanese Samurai in let’s say the year 500, someone who would look at both those persons, like me and this, would say, “Yeah, he’s the same playful, curious, not quite whatever guy. I can see how it’s the same core in a different form.” So how does that work?
ELIAS: (Chuckles) This is one of those subjects that is very, very difficult to understand in human terms, because (pause) you exist in a particular blueprint of a reality and that’s what you know. And in that, what you know is separation. And therefore, you think in a capacity of compartmentalizing. I have expressed countless times that YOU are essence. But for all of you, you continue to move in a direction of thinking that essence is something different, that whatever qualities you have are not the same as what the qualities of your essence are because your essence, in your perception, is bigger than you and that you are different from what your essence is.
Now; for the most part, I recognize that tremendously and therefore I speak to all of you in capacities that accommodate that, because that’s what you know and that’s how you associate. Even in our previous conversation about science and about physics and about perception, even that is something that is very understandable that science passes by the subject of perception because it’s something that is (pause) not understandable. It’s not quantifiable. It can’t be measured by mathematics or any of the means that you have to measure or to quantify in your reality. Therefore, because it can’t be measured, because it can’t be explained in a more intelligent or intellectual capacity than I’ve explained it to all of you, which is very elementary, scientists don’t pay attention to that. And in that, what I would say is that if you cannot actually understand and measure and quantify perception, which is a very objective mechanism – this is not something that is expressed throughout consciousness, because other than physical realities, perception is not necessary. It’s only necessary in relation to physical reality, because that’s what it projects. That’s what it creates.
And in that, there is so much of consciousness that isn’t physical and doesn’t involve objective awareness, it doesn’t involve perception, it doesn’t involve anything that you know about reality, then you move in the direction of essence. And what I would say to you, my friend, is to this point to date, even though I have given information and expressed repeatedly over and over and over again that everything is one, there is no separation in consciousness, that even essence, there is no definition of one essence or another essence. It’s all together. It’s all interconnected. But even those words point to elements of separation because if everything is together, that means there are things to be together.
[The timer for the end of the session rings]
ELIAS: If everything is connected, then there are things to be connected. Therefore—
MARKUS: Yeah, or in comparison there must be things that are disconnected as well.
ELIAS: Correct. Correct. And in that, everything you are IS essence. Every expression of essence IS in you.
MARKUS: Mm. I think I can see where I got off track.
ELIAS: That doesn’t mean that it’s always all expressed, but then there is tremendous potentials that all of you have that are never expressed.
Now; for most people, to this date presently, I am still expressing to them in capacities that accommodate their perception of separation. I—
MARKUS: It’s like you once said that basically there’s no basic difference between directing and observing focus.
ELIAS: Precisely. There is no difference. We continue to express that difference and that identification because that’s what humans can accept. I engage all of you in conversation with an undercurrent of feeling and emotion. Why? Because you wouldn’t be able to hear me if I didn’t.
MARKUS: I would like to make that experiment one day or another. I have had this on my bucket list for a long time.
ELIAS: (Laughs) Then perhaps we will, at one point, but I have done it in experimentation in the past with individuals and they cannot comprehend what is being expressed.
MARKUS: You make it even more, more attractive. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: And in that, I would say to you they don’t even remember me saying anything.
MARKUS: (Laughs) We have to do this.
ELIAS: They don’t even hear me. That in that, their actual senses cannot detect that I am even engaging with them, because this is what you know. And in that, I can say to you over and over and over again, consciousness is not a thing and from that non-thing springs actual things, but those things come from no thing. That consciousness is an action. It’s not a thing. And in that, even energy is a thing. Consciousness is not a thing. But that’s something that is, in physical focus, incomprehensible to humans. Therefore, in that – and I would say that it’s incomprehensible to any being in any physical reality – in that, physical realities inherently express that element of separation. And because of that, it is incomprehensible for individuals, for any beings in any physical reality, to genuinely understand an comprehend that essence is not bigger than them, that everything about essence they are. That—
MARKUS: Mm. I was kind of reluctant to ask this question even, because something in me… I knew something was off about this question. It was just because… Yeah, it’s the latest thing and it’s on my list and…
ELIAS: (Chuckles) It is the fashion presently, I would agree. (Laughs) But I would say that it’s also a matter of recognizing that you’re still striving and moving in a direction of that separation of attempting to pull something into yourself that’s greater than yourself. And what you don’t realize or that you don’t want to look at, is that in doing so, you’re discounting yourself by diminishing yourself, by perceiving yourself as something smaller or less than. And you’re not! And it doesn’t matter how many times I express that and how many times I explain it, it doesn’t assimilate.
MARKUS: Famous last words.
ELIAS: Because it can’t. And that’s understandable, but I continue to answer and I continue to give the same information because (laughs) that’s the only information I can give you, because that is accurate and correct and true.
MARKUS: Wow. I think I’m getting closer. Like every time, it’s like chopping a tree with a small knife. (Elias laughs) Eventually you get there.
ELIAS: (Laughs) And there is another metaphor. (Laughs)
MARKUS: Yes. (Both laugh) Indeed.
ELIAS: Chopping a tree with a small knife. (Laughs) And I would say to you, my dear friend, you are the king of metaphors. Therefore—
MARKUS: (Laughs) Thank you.
ELIAS: — it’s actually quite amusing that you would have even asked that question. (Laughs)
MARKUS: Ah, yes. Sometimes it’s about a splinter in the eye of the other and the log in front of your own.
ELIAS: (Laughs) I would say that from now on, you likely will remember THAT piece about metaphors forever.
MARKUS: Mm. And that was a metaphor also. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: You are quite right, my friend. (Laughs) I would say to you that it is a genuine pleasure engaging conversation with you.
MARKUS: Quite likewise.
ELIAS: I tremendously enjoy our interaction together, and I thoroughly express a tremendous, tremendous joy in sharing with you. (Chuckles)
MARKUS: It’s real fun. I cannot begin to describe how nice it is.
ELIAS: (Laughs) And I would say that it is an enjoyment that is worth every of your minutes. (Both laugh)
MARKUS: Oh certainly. Certainly. (Elias laughs) I can’t remember any that I would regret.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) Very well, my dear friend, I shall be tremendously looking forward to our next meeting and more of our stimulating conversations and more of your interesting provocations.
MARKUS: (Laughs) Me too. Me too. (Elias laughs) I’ll be curious with what I come up with. It’s like I am surprising myself within those conversations, although I make those little plans, or meanwhile just notes or mentions of some key words, and I’m always surprising myself how we will implement this together.
ELIAS: (Laughs) Well put, my friend. (Laughs)
MARKUS: Thank you.
ELIAS: I shall be looking forward to our conversation and I shall be offering my encouragement and my love and my friendship to you every moment in between.
MARKUS: Thank you very much. I’m grateful to no end.
ELIAS: In tremendous, tremendous friendship and great appreciation of that, au revoir.
MARKUS: Bye bye.
(Elias departs after 1 hour 42 minutes)
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