Session 202309031

Sadness, Nostalgia and Grieving; Endings are Beginnings; The In-Between State


“Dream Interpretation”
“A Parent with Dementia”
“Sadness, Nostalgia and Grieving”
“Endings and Beginnings”
“The In-Between State”

Sunday, September 3, 2023 (Private/Phone)

Participants: Mary (Michael) and John (Arry)

ELIAS: Good afternoon!

JOHN: Good afternoon.

ELIAS: And what have you been engaging, my friend?

JOHN: (Chuckles) Um… we’ll get to that. I want to start with another question for Kristen, a really interesting dream experience she told me about that I just felt compelled to ask about, because I was so intrigued. So this is a… This is a dream she had when she was in seventh grade, and it has stuck in her mind since then. It was very intense. So yeah, she was telling me about it and I was like, “Hold on! Let me write this down because I want to ask Elias about this.”

So the details that I have: she was in seventh grade. She was living in a house with her mom and she was sleeping on the… I guess it’s kind of a little downstairs family room, facing some sliding glass doors. And she had a dream that she was in the same spot and she saw a little kid outside the glass doors, like in the backyard. And she just had this sense that somehow the kid’s intentions were bad. And then the next scene, she was standing with a gun and actually shot the kid in the head, and then was aware that she didn’t have a normal, like emotional response to it and she was just kind of confused, why she did it. And then she wakes up on the couch and is pretty freaked out, I guess, about the dream. And then she said in the doorway to the hall, to leave that room to go towards her mom’s room, there was this sort of opaque, light blue, see-through, very tall being just kind of standing in the doorway, facing the glass door also. And she was super scared and she ran through the being and into her mom’s room, and eventually was just able to fall back asleep.

So I’m curious. I mean, that definitely does not sound… Yeah. I was just curious what you would say about what that experience was.

ELIAS: And did she or you have any assessment?

JOHN: She didn’t. She just remembered it as a really intense dream that she’s remembered her whole life. My… my initial response was like oh, that definitely sounds like a connection with another focus. And maybe she had another focus in that same house at some point or something, and was connecting to a memory of that experience, but that was the kind of only impression I had. And then in terms of the being that she saw after she woke up and ran through, I don’t really know about that.

ELIAS: Well, I would say that your initial assessment of it being a connection with another focus is correct. And I would say that it’s a translation, partially because she was translating it into present time, which it wasn’t present time. But in that, I would say that it wasn’t a child, either. It was a dwarf. And her feeling that this child, so to speak, was somewhat nefarious is correct. That they had ill intentions, that was correct. And in that, yes, she did shoot him.

JOHN: So in this other focus, was she an adult or was she a child?

ELIAS: She was an adolescent, therefore a child, yes.

JOHN: Okay.

ELIAS: And the gun belonged to her father, and she knew where it was, which was close to where she was, and therefore she was able to retrieve it quickly and yes, she shot him. And yes, she killed him. And in that, there was no actual consequence because she was a child and because it was not spoken of.

JOHN: What was the timeframe?

ELIAS: That would be in the time, the late 1800s.

JOHN: Whoa. Okay. And so this wasn’t in her same house? She was just kind of translating it as her house because it was a similar—


JOHN: Okay. Wow.

ELIAS: It was in a physical proximity, because it was in your town.

JOHN: It was in the town that she was…? So she was living in a town in northern, northern North Carolina, almost on the Virginia border. So you’re saying that this experience was close to that?


JOHN: Interesting. In the same town?


JOHN: Wow. Okay. (Laughs) This is fascinating. So then, what about the being that she saw after she woke up and like ran through? So I didn’t think about this at the time, but I just happened to remember that she did mention that there was a color aspect, if I’m remembering right, if I wrote it down right, that it was light blue, and that just made me think of you, just because I associate you with blue. Which I didn’t think about before. But what was the deal with that being?

ELIAS: That would be correct.

JOHN: (Laughs) So…

ELIAS: I would say that I am aware that she was frightened, but I would say that my energy was being projected to be comforting.

JOHN: Wow. Okay. Well, I will share this with her. I could talk about this for a long time, but I want to get to other things. Thank you for that. That was—

ELIAS: You are very welcome.

JOHN: — very interesting. All right. I’ve written a lot of things down since our last conversation, and I’ve had a lot of interesting emotional experiences. It’s been a pretty intense month and I’m feeling much better, in a more peaceful place, this last week. But I’m not quite sure exactly where I want to go next, but… So one thing I want to spend some time on is talking about my dad, and I’m just debating if I want to do that first or if there’s any other smaller questions first. And I think I’m going to try to ask some other questions first.

This is one thing that I never really… We never talked about this after the fact but so, years ago when we first started talking, I still had the hepatitis-c and we talked about that at times, in terms of using stones to help with that and etc. You had lots of recommendations, so… I eventually took the same medication that my parents took, which worked for them and cured them, and I kind of watched their experience. And anyway, I took that and it worked for me. And I guess my question at this point is, I still sometimes wonder if I have any lingering liver damage at all from having hepatitis for so long? Or is my liver fine at this point?

ELIAS: I would say that it has healed well.

JOHN: Okay. Is that still affecting me in any way? I mean, I guess if my liver is pretty much healed at this point, it wouldn’t… I would imagine it wouldn’t really be affecting me. The reason I’m asking is because I know that the liver can affect lots of different things, in terms of energy levels and the way you process food and just all kinds of different things, so that’s really what I’m getting at. Is there any way that my liver has been affecting me negatively since then? And it sounds like my liver is good at this point, so I assume the answer would be no, it’s not negatively impacting me in any way.

ELIAS: That would be correct.

JOHN: Okay. Yeah. I was just kind of curious if that was a part of any of the other things I’ve experienced physically.

ELIAS: Such as?

JOHN: Well, just like just sleep issues I’ve had, or just general energy level issues I’ve had over the years. Which have all kind of all gotten better since I… And I don’t know that they were related, but I’ve just kind of been curious about the correlation. I definitely used to struggle a lot with like my energy levels throughout the day, but then maybe that was a part of it at the time, was my liver was affecting that. But I think it was also just more energetic things in my life, and my food choices. I think it was just a lot of other things.

I just found (laughs)… Okay, I just found another question that I had forgotten. So this is a dream experience I had in the last month that was very interesting to me, and I wrote down to ask you about. And all I remember of this dream was me and my sister were in a house and this is actually, telling Kristen this dream is what prompted her to tell me about her dreams that I asked you. So I was in a house with my sister and it felt kind of like we were kind of searching for my mom. That’s kind of all I remember, was the context of it. And I just… It ended with this scene of… My sister was ahead of me. She kind of went through a door into this room, and all I saw as I was walking in was her like gasping, like she was kind of horrified. And so as I walked into the room, it was almost like there was a short wall inside the room that was blocking my view a little bit. And so like, it felt like a movie scene where the camera was kind of panning along with my vision.

So I kind of see my sister, have this gasp reaction, and my vision is kind of slowly hitting the wall. And as I get closer, I can sort of see over the wall and what I see is my mom and she’s… she’s dead. It feels like I’m aware she’s dead in the dream, and her body is almost… The way that I described it is she was like petrified, as if she was sitting in her chair that she normally sat in, and she was smiling and her eyes were open. It was literally like something petrified her and she just fell over out of her chair and was laying on the ground but on her side and in the same, you know, kind of frozen position and the same kind of happy, smiling facial expression.

And I noticed that I didn’t really have any type of emotional reaction to it. I just kind of thought it was strange. And it almost… Like my vision kept going beyond her, as I was like processing that really quickly. And then behind her, in the room, I just saw this big black hole that was kind of like… It seemed like it was spinning and maybe almost like bubbling, almost like it was tar or something. And it was very quick.

The whole experience felt like it was only a few seconds, just turning a corner, seeing my sister, then seeing my mom and seeing this black stuff. And I just had like no real emotional reaction other than just kind of like intrigued and confused a little bit, or like wow, this is really interesting, like what is this? And that’s all I remember. And so (laughs), I was just really curious what that was about.

And I’m sure you’ll ask, so the only impression that I was kind of curious about, that I thought about, was what you’ve talked about in terms of people’s death experience and eventually getting to the point where they start seeing holes in their reality. That was the only association that I could think of, in relation to that.

ELIAS: Congratulations.

JOHN: So that’s what that was?

ELIAS: I would say that that is correct. And in that, the reason that you imaged her being dead in the manner that you did, that she was appearing to be looking and smiling, was a part of that. That that was a translation of being dead, but also looking happy.

JOHN: Hm. So is there any correlation to her experience? I mean, does that, was I seeing that she’s, she’s at that point where she is seeing the holes? Or was it more just that was the imagery—


JOHN: So she is?

ELIAS: That doesn’t mean that she has remembered yet.

JOHN: Okay. Yeah.

ELIAS: And that may take a while, because she is just now noticing. But she’s only sometimes noticing, not always.

JOHN: Yeah. Which kind of was interesting in the imagery itself, because she wasn’t looking at the hole or noticing the hole. She was more just looking at us and in this frozen state. But I noticed the hole very distinctly.

ELIAS: Which—

JOHN: Very interesting.

ELIAS: Which also, I would say, is somewhat accurate because you can be projecting energy to her, as I’ve expressed, intentionally and she will receive it through those holes. But she will translate it into her own imagery.

JOHN: Right. Fascinating. (Both laugh) Yeah. So I think, think I want to transition to asking some questions about my dad and I don’t know… I want to at least just start with, again, sort of some yes or no questions, and if I want to talk more about it or ask more about it, we can do that. But I might just kind of start with some yes or no questions and then come back to it maybe next time.

So I have noticed, I’ve been noticing this for years, but essentially we were just so focused on my mom and her experience that we just never really addressed it. I never addressed it, and I think I noticed it more than anyone because I spent the most time with them, because I lived with them part-time throughout the last few years, whereas my sister didn’t so she just saw them less.

Essentially, I’ve noticed that his memory has just seemed to be very bad for a long time. And more recently, this last month especially, I spent some time with him while he had cataract surgery and I spent a couple of days with him. And it’s just since my mom has been gone, I’ve noticed it more and more, and I feel more and more concerned about essentially his cognitive state at this point. And I guess the simple question is, is he… Is he developing or already has some mild type of dementia or Alzheimer’s or just some type of cognitive brain issue that’s affecting his memory at this point? Or is it more…?

Because we’ve talked about this with me, and I think it’s very true that all kinds of factors can affect our memory in different ways, and just a general lack of being present, which I would say is very true for him. I think he’s extremely not-present in his life, and he’s still processing losing my mom. And you know, he’s on a lot of medications and there’s all kinds of factors that could be affecting his memory. So it’s really hard to tell what is, let’s just lump all that into one category, versus he actually has some type of cognitive disease process happening, whether that’s dementia or Alzheimer’s or whatever. So that’s my essential question at this point, is, is he developing that or does he already have something like that going on? (Pause)

(The connection is broken and is re-established)

ELIAS: Continuing.

JOHN: Yes.

ELIAS: I expressed yes.

JOHN: Ah. Okay. I did not hear that. Was that my energy that just popped you out?


JOHN: Okay. Yeah. I thought that might happen. Okay. So, I mean it seems clear at this point that that was definitely at least a part of it. I don’t think it’s either one, one or the other. I think it’s a mixture of both because I think all the other stuff is also true, but there’s been a couple of experiences recently that just seemed very clearly like okay, this is something else. And I guess one question I have would be, has this…? Like how long has he…? When did it…? How long has this been going on, I guess? I don’t know if that’s even able to be quantified, but is this something that’s been going on for years? Is this more of a new thing? Is this more in response to losing my mom?

ELIAS: I would say that all of these things are factors that are exacerbating the situation and making it worse, or escalating it, let us say. That he’s been moving in this direction for years, but with the combination of your mother’s death and everything else, I would say that that all is escalating it considerably. Therefore it’s more obvious to notice now. It’s not something that you would necessarily simply put down to forgetfulness.

JOHN: Right. Yeah. Okay. (Chuckles) So I have other questions kind of related to this, in terms of suggestions you might have, etc., but I guess… I want to have a conversation with my sister about this. We’ve been talking about it more recently, this last month, so yeah. I’m kind of thinking how I want to… how I want to use this time right now. Would you…? Would it be helpful to start having conversations with him about it? Because that’s kind of the point that I’m at—


JOHN: And none of us have brought this up.

ELIAS: Not at (inaudible). No.


ELIAS: No. Not at this point. No.

JOHN: Why is that?

ELIAS: At this point, I would say two things. One is that he would most definitely deny it. And two, it would scare him.

JOHN: Yeah. Actually, that was another question—

ELIAS: Because even though, even though he would deny it, he has noticed.

JOHN: Yeah. That was my question. It does seem like he’s starting to notice and it does… Like I’ve had the impression, especially this last month spending time with him, that he is starting to notice it and sort of playing it off, and kind of doing what I would imagine somebody who’s in that state and starting to notice things and feels afraid themselves and also doesn’t want to scare us, would do. He’s doing those things.

ELIAS: Correct.

JOHN: Yeah.

ELIAS: Correct. And you, at this point, expressing it would simply frighten him more. He’s already uneasy, but recognizing that you and your sister are noticing, that would be even more frightening to him. Because then he’ll move likely in directions of questioning what the two of you might do, and how that might affect him. And he is in a position presently in which he definitely doesn’t want to leave his home and that would scare him.

JOHN: Yeah. Okay. I will leave it at that for now. And we’re all getting together today and I think I want to plan to have a conversation with my sister sometime soon. But yeah, I will have more… I will have more questions probably in our next, in our next conversation. But I guess I would just ask, I mean just very basic level things. I mean, is there anything that you would recommend me to do at this point to support Dad or to…? I don’t know. What would…? What should I do? What do you have as a recommendation at this point?

ELIAS: First of all, be patient.

JOHN: Yeah.

ELIAS: If you move in a direction of becoming exasperated with him, it will simply compound the situation. And let me also say to you, stress plays a role in this type of manifestation. It’s definitely a part of dementia, that the more stressed the individual becomes, the more it escalates the situation. Therefore I would say the lighter you can be in your energy and your expression, and the more patient you can be, the better.

And in that, if he becomes confused or if he repeats himself, don’t move in a direction of expressing, “I already said that to you.”

JOHN: Yeah.

ELIAS: That’s what I mean by not becoming exasperated with him. Because if he’s repeating himself, he genuinely doesn’t remember your answer to him prior. And in that, either of you expressing an exasperation that you’ve already answered him will simply make him uneasy and will stress.

JOHN: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I’m going to share this with my sister as well. Yeah. I have more questions but I guess that I will… Maybe we’ll talk more about that next time.

ELIAS: Very well.

JOHN: Thank you.

ELIAS: You are very welcome.

JOHN: So (pause)… Actually, I’ve tried to get into the habit – or I’m not going to say getting into the habit – I decided to write more recently about what I’ve been experiencing, just to kind of, I don’t know, maybe practice journaling or something like that.

ELIAS: Excellent. Excellent.

JOHN: Which I think was—say again?

ELIAS: Excellent.

JOHN: Ah. Yeah, it was helpful. So I guess I had this experience sort of in the middle of the month. I was helping Kristen get ready to leave the country. I spent a few days with her, and before she was leaving she got covid. So she was really sick and she couldn’t do anything, and obviously everybody else was busy with their jobs and lives, and also didn’t want to be around her. I stepped up and just did all the things that she needed help with, and I spent a lot of time with her.

And at least according to the… We all hung out. Basically half the people got really sick, half of us were fine. I was fine and I was like, I mean we were all exposed at the same time, I’m really not concerned about this regardless, so whatever. So I just spent a lot of time with her. I was helping her pack. I was helping her run errands. I was doing all these things and spending time with her because she was having this really intense emotional experience and super stressed.

So I was fine for most of that, and then afterwards when she left, I noticed that I was… I kind of had this wave of really intense loneliness and just sadness, and… Not unlike other times I’ve experienced that, but it just kind of caught me off guard because I wasn’t, I haven’t really experienced that in a while. And it hit me really hard for like, I don’t know, a few days or a week. And simultaneously to that, I did end up feeling sick for maybe a day and a half or something. So my one question was, did I actually also generate covid for a day or two? Or was that something else? My impression was that it was. It was just a very mild case for, like I said, maybe a day.

ELIAS: I would say that you displayed some symptoms of it, but did you actually activate it? Not actually.

JOHN: Okay. Was that at all related—

ELIAS: The symptoms—

JOHN: Sorry.

ELIAS: Some of the symptoms, and in that, I would say that you likely did that in sympathy.

JOHN: (Laughs) Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. So then I would assume that that was not really related to my emotional experience at all? I mean, I was starting to wonder if I did, if I was expressing covid, that it was somehow also affecting me emotionally, because it seemed so out of the blue that I was experiencing that. But I guess it’s unrelated.

ELIAS: I would say most definitely. Why would you think it wasn’t?

JOHN: Well… So I didn’t activate it, but I was expressing physical symptoms and that also was affecting me emotionally?


JOHN: Hm. So around that time, I honestly don’t really remember the sequence of events at this point, if it was before I felt sick or… Right around that time, after Kristen left, one of the things that I had been experiencing was I was still going to the coffee shop to work during the day, just do my computer stuff. And it was the same one that I used to walk to from Kristen’s apartment, just because I really like the place and it’s what I was used to. So I would essentially drive by her apartment on my way there and back, almost every day. And I’d literally drive on the little back road right by the apartment complex.

And there’s a greenway there that we used to walk with Diesel pretty much every day, multiple times a day. I mean, we did a lunch walk pretty much every day if I was there, we did an after-work walk, sometimes I would take Diesel out at night. And I had been feeling for a while, I hadn’t been on that greenway since I left in February, you know, when I moved back out west. That was the last time I had walked that greenway. And I had thought about it periodically, like oh maybe I should go walk the greenway and just kind of see how I feel or… I don’t know. I just kind of felt this impulse to do it. And that day in particular, well more recently I had noticed I kept feeling this impulse and I was honestly really nervous to do it.

And so this day, because Kristen had left I was feeling really emotional. I was like… I almost felt compelled. It was like my arms just turned the wheel to the left instead of the right. And I went and parked by the greenway and the moment my feet hit the greenway and started walking, I just started crying. I hadn’t been on the greenway in probably a year and a half, and all of these memories just flooded back, in terms of remembering times with Diesel and her as well. And – a little cricket just appeared on my (inaudible). So I ended up walking most of the greenway and kind of doing the walk that we used to do. And I was basically just crying the whole time. And it looked somewhat different. It had grown a lot because they had done a bunch of construction and it just looked somewhat different. So I went off the path to this little side area that we used to take Diesel and let him off-leash and just kind of run around, and we would sit by the creek. And I went that way, and just sat for a while and cried. And I talked to Diesel for quite a while and just expressed some of the things that I was feeling.

And it felt really, overall, like it was very cathartic and I would say (chuckles) very good. But it kind of spurred some interesting questions. I mean, part of it just felt like my grieving process. And I haven’t had a really intense experience like that in a while, you know, related to him. And so what I noticed and what I’m kind of thinking a lot about, so me and Kristen have been separated now for a year and a half I guess. I still haven’t dated anyone. I haven’t basically done anything in that world, as we’ve talked about. And one of the questions that came to my mind was just – and I’m trying not to judge this in any way – but I wrote down the question: do I just miss the routine? Because so much of what I was feeling in that moment was just like missing the companionship and missing the routine of… Even if I felt really disconnected from her or it was… we had a really stressful day, or I was, I was really stressed, just the routine of getting up and walking that greenway every day, and particularly the connection to Diesel and watching him just live his best dog life and running around in the grass and chasing squirrels. And all those things were just so simple and so beautiful.

And yeah, I just kind of came to this question. It’s not that I want to be with Kristen again. I don’t think that’s a good idea and I feel clear in that. But it just made me think about my relationship to partnership and what is important to me, and the things that I miss. And I think there’s a huge piece about just the basic companionship and routines. And I guess I have a question about that. Is that what I am…? Is that what I am missing? It seems silly as I’m saying this out loud. I’m like, “Well of course, of course that is part of what I’m missing. Of course, that’s…” I know that that’s important to me. So it’s an obvious answer that’s yes. But maybe it’s just that it’s hitting me harder right now and I’m recognizing that more and I’m maybe questioning it more, of what is it that I want in partnership. You know, what is it that is important to me in partnership? And I’m seeing that obviously companionship and routine, and those seem to be a big factor. So I don’t even know that I have a question. I guess I’m just sharing this, and I would be curious to hear your reflection.

ELIAS: Very well. I would say that the grieving process is a piece of it. And I would say that it’s not only the dog, but also your mother. And that’s a piece of what prompted this response in you. I would say that yes, you are correct in evaluating, partially, what you want in a relationship with another individual. And the routine of it is definitely a piece. I would also say that (pause) people in general have a tendency when they are sad or when they are nostalgic – which many times, those two pieces move together – to actually focus on what they appreciated and what was good in relationships.

Now; in that, I would say that for you, that has been somewhat of a swirl of all three: your ex-partner, the dog and your mother. And in that, feeling a grieving for all of them and each of them, and also having some factor of being nostalgic in relation to your ex-partner and the dog. Not necessarily thinking so much about your mother, as much as feeling in that. And I would say that that’s very natural, and it’s also part of a grieving process.

Now; in association with relationship, I would also say that in this grieving process, with all three of them, you’re also beginning, just beginning, to somewhat move in a direction of that recognition of complements, and what does that mean. And in that, the very first tip of a piece that you recognized was routine, the sameness of things, the sameness of expressions, and how that simplifies life and how attractive that is, and that this is something that you have now stored in relation to your realization and awareness of one of the components of what you want in a complement with another individual.

Therefore it’s a combination. It’s not all about loss. It’s also about moving in a new direction. I have expressed many times: with every ending, it creates a beginning. That’s the natural order of things, is that endings are always also beginnings. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that people actually recognize the beginnings in relation to endings, but I would say that you are beginning to, in having this mix of feelings and ideas and realizations, but they’re still somewhat hazy.

JOHN: (Laughs) Yeah.

ELIAS: But that’s good, that you actually did have a beginning of a realization. (Pause)

JOHN: Yeah.

ELIAS: Therefore I would acknowledge you, and express a congratulations, that that is good. It’s a beginning of a realization. And you will likely have others that will follow, that may be initially somewhat confusing to you, but they will also be prompting you in the correct directions.

JOHN: Yeah. I’ve been reflecting a lot on… the phrase that you used, I don’t remember exactly the first time we, the first time you used it in one of the last few conversations we had, but the concept of things falling away has just resonated so deeply with me and so many of the things that have been happening and that I’ve been experiencing feel like they’re in… They fall under that umbrella of things just falling away. And there is a fair amount of confusion in that, like I can kind of sense that things are falling away and I can sense that things are changing and I can sense these new beginnings, but that’s kind of all, that’s kind of all I can phrase it as, sort of structured in mind as like well, things are just falling away and I don’t know what they mean and I don’t know what’s coming in their place or what.

But one of the things that I wrote down that I was going to say was this is… Around that time that I was writing, a lot of what I’ve been coming against too this last month is I do, I have been feeling more fear and concern around money because one of the potential kind of… I’m trying to explore and create a basic job that’s very flexible, like we talked about with, you know, doing something like Door Dash and delivery things. So I finally went to do that, I went through the whole process, and then at the end they said, you know it’s just an automated, online form, that our market is too saturated here and they’re not even accepting people. And I didn’t even consider that as a possibility, that that would happen. And so it triggered some money fear, which I’ve been working with, and I have other ideas and options that I’m exploring, but I definitely want something while I’m building the business and I still do mostly kind of feel trust in that process, that I will find and create something and it’ll be fine.

But while I was reflecting on that and just reflecting on the business and reflecting on all these changes, I’ve felt a lot of confusion and feeling a little lost in terms of being back in Charlotte again and just the direction that I’m going and what I’m doing and… I feel like… Essentially what I wrote was it seems like I’m kind of coming to this intersection of doing the self-directing and the self-structuring pieces and figuring out what that really means for me, and what that really looks like and how that feels, and how to do that.

And one of the concepts that’s been coming up over and over is this, this idea of commitment and how in most of my life I’ve been very afraid of commitment in various ways. But I feel like in the way that I’m coming to it now, it’s like stepping into this path that I’ve been working on for years, there’s a huge piece of commitment and not knowing what’s going to happen, and just committing anyway and trusting that and trusting myself. And I think I’ve always had this struggle between commitment and losing a sense of freedom. And that’s been a big theme in this last… since we talked last. It seems like a lot of the things that I’ve been kind of struggling with, whether it’s relationship and moving forward with that in some way or whether it’s the business, I just feel this kind of old sense of hesitation still and fear sometimes. And I don’t know.

Ultimately, that’s kind of how I’m framing it in my mind, is that it… I’m coming up against this wanting to and feeling ready to actually create my own structure and live my life and do the things that I really want to do, and face the reality of what that really means and the responsibility of that and the commitment of that, and sort of letting go of this idea or this sense that I’m somehow going to lose some sense of freedom or… I don’t know. I feel like there’s some kind of loss in it, and the thing that comes to mind is always like a sense of freedom. So…

ELIAS: Which actually is very understandable. And I would say that in this present time, there is a significant vulnerability that you are experiencing, and you’re in the in-between. And let me explain to you, my friend, that this is not bad. (Sighs)

The in-between is the state that people enter into when they are readying themselves for their next step. And in that, what it means is that you’re assimilating and you’re preparing. And that is an important piece, that you’re preparing for that next step.

Now; in that in-between, you will give yourself information about what you’re doing, and you already are. You’re noticing what you’re afraid of and you’re being able to define it more clearly. And that is part of that preparing for that next step. Because in that, the next step is unfamiliar, but it IS freedom. You’re not losing your freedom. You are finally gaining it.

You’ve been thinking about your freedom in manners that are not actually accurate, that you think that you’re free but you’re not yet entirely. Because the actual genuine freedom will come when that fear is gone. When you can be you and not be afraid, not be afraid of money, not be afraid of people and relationships, not be afraid of your business and whether it will be successful or not, not be afraid of anything. But simply be, and in that, have that fall away. And it will.

And it will actually likely more sooner than you think, because you are in this process, in the in-between. I will say to you very genuinely that this is a state in which you are processing and readying yourself to be actually what you want to be, which is free, which is successful, which is not worrying. And in that, you don’t necessarily know what the appearance of all of this is yet, or how everything is going to work. And this is what I have expressed to you previously, that you don’t have to have a map. You will know when you’re ready.

And in that, I know that sounds cryptic, but in actuality, it’s not. Because you’re already giving yourself that information, that awareness of what is holding you and what is important and what isn’t important. And in that, you will be able to move forward. And it may require that bravery and courage because you do slip and out of fears, but remember: fear is always future-based. It’s always an anticipation. And what you’re doing now is giving yourself that opportunity to know that, and to choose intentionally, rather than avoiding because it’s automatic and because that’s what you know.

[The timer for the end of the session rings]

ELIAS: This is also part of moving in the direction of actually discovering your complement. Because that’s unfamiliar also. And everything is interconnected. Therefore it doesn’t matter if it’s money, if it’s the business, or if it’s a person. It doesn’t matter. It’s all interconnected. And in that, the base of it all is the same. And that is the part about you and you giving up the fight. And what is the fight? The fight is the fear and the staying in what you know and not stepping out into what you don’t know, because it’s unfamiliar and because you are afraid.

In that, my dear friend, once you step into that bravery, then everything will change. And it will.

JOHN: Well, one thing that I said in our last conversation was that I will have a… I guess that I will be having some type of business income or have a client or something by the time we talk next. I didn’t quite make that, but (Elias laughs) I started the conversation, because I had been noticing that I was waiting and waiting and waiting. And I had friends like basically tell me, “When you’re ready, just let us know. We’ll figure it out.” And I had just realized that I’ve been hesitating and analyzing the money piece and how much I should charge and how I’m going to structure things. And I had it all written out and I was just feeling stuck in that. And I finally just said, “Just start the conversation.”

And so I started the conversation with them and now we’re in talks. One of my friends has replied and she said basically, honestly, it’s a little more money than I thought but I still want to work with you. So it might, you know, we’ll have to figure it out. And the point of that is that it’s really good practice. It’s been really good practice for me to just say I don’t need to change my pricing or change the structure that I want. I don’t need to just say oh, well, you know, I’ll just do it for free, or… I don’t need to change anything. I can just put myself out there. This is what it is. This is the decisions I’ve made. And yes, I can change that at any point, but not to be super rigid, but just to allow myself to come up against that potential response of like oh, well that’s a lot of money, oh, I don’t know if I want… You know.

ELIAS: And the first part is you, being confident.

JOHN: Yeah. Right.

ELIAS: The more confident you are, the less frequently you will hear those words.

JOHN: Exactly. And this is the perfect practice, because I immediately read that and my automatic response has always been oh I should change something, oh I should like accommodate them, I should somehow scramble to make it work. And instead, I’ve just been like okay, I hear that, and we can work something out. And if it only, you can only afford x number of sessions, then that’s fine. We’ll make do with that and… Yeah, to not just automatically accommodate for somebody else.

ELIAS: Correct.

JOHN: And to just stay true to what I really want and what I think I’m worth and what I want to structure things as, and just stick to that. And it feels really good. So…

ELIAS: Congratulations.

JOHN: Yeah. There’s my—

ELIAS: Because—

JOHN: — success story for this conversation. (Laughs)

ELIAS: Yes. Most definitely, because that is what is important, that you remain steadfast, and in that, hold to your confidence and hold to you. That this is what you have chosen, because this is what you are worth—

JOHN: Yeah.

ELIAS: — now, and perhaps in the future, you will be worth more.

JOHN: (Laughs) Most likely.

ELIAS: And for now, this is what you have decided and this is what you are expressing as your worth, and that’s enough. And in that, that is the baseline of it all: that’s enough.

JOHN: Yeah. Well, I just wanted to share that little follow-up, but we should go. Yeah, thank you for all that.

ELIAS: I would say tremendously congratulations, and I would also express to you to enjoy your day with your family. And you can engage heavy conversations with your sister at another time, in which you are not enjoying the family.

JOHN: Yeah. I hear that.

ELIAS: Very well. Have fun, my friend. Give yourself, give yourself a break and have fun.

JOHN: I will do my best.

ELIAS: (Laughs) Very well. I shall greatly be looking forward to our next conversation, without pressure. (Laughs) And I will be offering my energy to you as always, in tremendous, tremendous support and perhaps some imagination.

JOHN: Hm. Sounds good.

ELIAS: Very well. In very much sublime love to you, my dear friend, as always, au revoir.

(Elias departs after 1 hour 6 minutes)

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