Swiss Cheese People
Topics:
Session 20210225
“Swiss Cheese People”
“Narcissists”
“Psychopaths and Sociopaths”
“The Construct of Honesty”
Thursday, February 25, 2021 (Private/Phone)
Participants: Mary (Michael) and Jean-François (Samta)
ELIAS: Good afternoon!
JF: Hello, formidable dragon.
ELIAS: (Laughs) And what shall we discuss this day?
JF: Today it would be a follow-up discussion from our last about the narcissists and the Swiss cheese. [1]
Different people were interested in the subject, and different people have contributed to make this session happen. So, I’d like to acknowledge Melissa and Marina, Debbie, Jeff and Ann. And I guess we can just get started.
ELIAS: Very well.
JF: So, the Swiss cheese person, does that constitute an actual personality type, like a leader personality or aristocratic personality that you’ve discussed? Is the Swiss cheese a type in a similar capacity?
ELIAS: No. No. I would say that this could be anyone and of any orientation and of any focus type and of any family, and any personality type.
JF: So, do these Swiss cheese people, are they typically born that way? Or does it develop through life experience, typically?
ELIAS: It generally develops very young. Are they born that way? No. But they generally do develop in this manner at very young ages. They begin developing that persona very young. In a manner of speaking, this might be part of what psychology views as an alter ego.
JF: I was going to ask you that, like what would be…? Like with narcissism, we have a recognized psychological term or designation: narcissistic personality disorder. So, I was curious about the Swiss cheese. Would there be a designation in psychology that corresponds to that type of person?
ELIAS: That would likely be it, that this would be associated with an alter ego and that the individual is expressing in that capacity. Now, a psychologist would likely add to that, that the individual would be likely a compulsive liar.
Now, in that, I would say I would not necessarily agree with that terminology, simply because I don’t necessarily agree with the terminology of lying. Because lying is a designation of something that people express as an untruth—but what defines truth?
JF: Right. It’s connected to the idea of an absolute.
ELIAS: Correct. And in relation to perception, that is also a designation of conformity to what is expressed as the norm, and therefore whatever is expressed outside of that norm could be designated or identified or defined as lying. But I would say that that is very broad, very general and is also inaccurate, that this is a matter of perception.
Now, what I would say is, in relation to an individual that is a Swiss cheese individual, this is an individual that is aware of what is accepted in the reality of other people. They are not creating a different reality entirely. They would not be part of those people that are creating a very different reality. They are aware of the reality that most people around them are creating, and in a manner of speaking, they are creating that also.
JF: Is that what motivates the Swiss cheese, is that they, in genuineness, might be expressing in ways that would not align with what is socially accepted, and that the motivation to project a facade, as you’ve described, is because they do want to give the impression of aligning with the social consensus?
ELIAS: Not entirely, because they DO. They actually DO align with the social consensus.
JF: Okay.
ELIAS: But there is an additional factor. Their life isn’t sensational enough or isn’t important enough, or isn’t dramatic enough, in the manner that it has been expressed. Therefore, they create an overlay of another reality.
JF: So, these are bored people?
ELIAS: I would not necessarily say that they are bored. Some, perhaps, but what I would say is, generally speaking, Swiss cheese people are intelligent, they are creative, they are dissatisfied with the appearance of their own life, that their own life isn’t sensational enough. It isn’t special; it isn’t spectacular enough. Therefore, they create an overlay to their reality in which they create additions to it. And in that, those additions will be much more dramatic and sensational, or important.
JF: I know what you’re talking about. Yeah.
ELIAS: They will either be more accomplished and more significant in certain capacities, or they will be greater victims in certain capacities. But if they are a victim, they will have overcome that victimhood, and therefore they will have accomplished. Because this is one of the pieces that is common with Swiss cheese people: When they create that overlay to their life, they create that in the capacity that it will make their life appear to be more important—therefore, more spectacular, more dramatic, more significant in some manner.
JF: Well, I can definitely see what you are expressing now.
I would love to continue digging into this, and we will, but before we do that, I would like to bring in now some of the questions that were offered by different people, just to be sure that we cover this well.
Melissa is asking, “Have I had any relationships with any actual narcissists or Swiss cheese person? My impression is no, except for possibly [name].”
ELIAS: I would say no.
JF: So there hasn’t been significant relationships in her life that involve either of these types?
ELIAS: Correct.
JF: Okay. Thank you.
And now Debbie. Debbie has had the intuition that the individual that she has been interacting with – and this person is being intentionally not named, but you know who it is – so she has the intuition that this individual that she has been interacting with is a narcissist rather than a Swiss cheese. And she’s wondering that maybe even the narcissist expression is reaching states similar to a psychopath or an actual psychopath. Would you say that this is accurate?
ELIAS: I would agree with the first part, and I would say that moving in the direction of the identification of a psychopath might be an exaggeration—perhaps more in an expression of a sociopath.
JF: And what would be the distinction between a psychopath and a sociopath in your… like in your… I know you don’t have a perception. (Laughs) I was going to say “in your perception.” (Elias laughs) How would you distinguish?
ELIAS: I would say that a psychopath has actually moved in a direction of crossing into another reality; but in that, generally speaking, an individual that is a psychopath has developed that in relation to extreme, significant trauma that they cannot reconcile themselves to, and therefore they move in an extreme direction of disassociation. They disassociate from feelings, but they disassociate from the, let us say, construction of reality. Therefore they, in a manner of speaking, degrade or socially and emotionally devolve into a state of disassociation to the point in which they have difficulty engaging with reality because they can’t connect with it.
Now, in that, an individual that has devolved into what you would term to be a psychopathic state, this individual has a much greater potential to incorporate behaviors that are extreme and that can be very harmful to themselves and to others, because they are, in a manner of speaking, desperately attempting to connect to something, to create some type of sensation that will allow them to connect to something—whether it be to a feeling or to a physical sensation, which also is a feeling, or to a perception of power, which also can be a feeling. But in that, that is very different.
A sociopath: Now, an individual that you would classify as a sociopath, this can be generated in two different capacities. Some individuals are born into that. Some individuals choose that from birth. They are choosing a particular direction in how to be engaging and experiencing your reality. Some individuals develop that also from trauma, but some individuals don’t necessarily have trauma and can be a sociopath. And those individuals generally have expressed that from birth.
Now, in that, a sociopath is different. They also have difficulty, but not impossible, in connecting. But in that, they have some aspects of their expression and their personality that are dissociative, which is what creates the difficulty in them connecting with other individuals. But a significant difference in this is that their difficulty in connecting, their expression of disassociation, is linked to a lack of empathy.
Now, that can be expressed in varying degrees. It isn’t black and white.
JF: Right. There’s a spectrum, right?
ELIAS: In a manner of speaking, yes, because it isn’t a situation in which the individual has an entire lack of empathy. They might. There are degrees, and there are some individuals that are very obvious sociopaths that you can identify very clearly because they will express no expression of empathy—they have none. In that, these individuals will express a very narrow capacity of feelings.
Now, that doesn’t mean they don’t feel at all. They do, but because they have this lack of empathy, it is more difficult for them to be expressing those signals of feelings. They don’t pay much attention to those signals, and therefore they don’t generate as many of them. But the ones that they do generate generally only have to do with themselves—therefore, what makes them happy or what makes them sad or what makes them angry, because they have no sense of empathy.
Now, as I expressed, that would be the extreme, but there are varying degrees of this lack of empathy. And in that, you can see that in another individual somewhat clearly, even in degrees. It will be somewhat obvious that they seem to have very little or no understanding of what other people experience.
JF: Mm-hm. So this individual that Debbie was asking about would tend to be closer to sociopath rather than psychopath?
ELIAS: Yes. Yes.
JF: Okay. Okay. Thank you.
ELIAS: You are welcome.
JF: And then Jeff was wondering whether… He was wondering, can there be an opposite to a Swiss cheese person? And then he said, “I think I went in the total opposite direction of that, in that I became hyper-aware of everyone around me, almost obsessed with pleasing them and being liked, to the point that I had no idea of what I actually liked and enjoyed.” And as I’m reading the question now again to you, I’m wondering whether he meant opposite of narcissist, like what he described sounds to me more like an opposite of narcissism.
ELIAS: I would say yes, but I would say that that is actually more common, that people move in those directions in which they even lose themself or a sense of themself.
JF: So you would validate this impression that he has been expressing in somewhat of an opposite capacity to the narcissist?
ELIAS: Yes. But I would say that that isn’t necessarily a designation of something such as these expressions that we are defining, because I would say that in varying degrees there are considerable numbers of individuals that express in this manner. This is very common in relation to how an individual is raised, what the influences are and what is expressed as important, what should be important.
And what I would say is, especially in your present time framework and in relation to the previous generations, this would be very common.
JF: Mm-hm. Right.
ELIAS: Because of how you are taught, and what you are taught, and what your societies express as important. And I would say that it has been exceptionally important to be selfless.
JF: Aha. Yes. I’m (laughs) familiar with that idea, Elias.
ELIAS: It’s very common.
JF: Mm-hm.
I would have a side validation for Jeff apart from this subject. He has been opening to other focuses of his, and it is his impression very recently he’s been engaging and forming a pyramid type of configuration with some of his other focuses. One of them would be a male healer from 24,000 years ago, [and] another would be a female healer from 26,000 years ago. Both of them would be from a civilization designated by the term Samsa, and these are the base of the pyramid. And the other two at the base of the pyramid, one he’s identified as an Iroquois warrior. Another is a Samurai. And then at the apex of the formation he would have brought in a future focus from 2159. She is female, Hanja, 110 years old and a differential time specialist. Would you validate these impressions?
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: All of it?
ELIAS: I would say congratulations!
JF: He seems to be opening up quite strongly.
ELIAS: I would agree.
JF: Well, thank you for those validations.
ELIAS: You are very welcome.
JF: What about this acupuncturist that I was involved with for a while, [name]: is that a Swiss cheese?
ELIAS: (Pause) No.
JF: What about my cousin, [name]?
ELIAS: (Pause) No.
JF: Are there others? Have there been significant relationships other than [name] that are of this configuration?
ELIAS: In your life?
JF: Mm-hm.
ELIAS: No. Not at this point.
JF: Okay.
ELIAS: Not at this point, and I would express that now that you are identifying that, it is likely that you also won’t draw that to yourself as much.
JF: You got that right! (Both laugh) You have got that right, Sir Elias. Yes. (Elias laughs)
Okay. Ann: She is wondering, what’s the difference between what a Swiss cheese person does versus someone who engages being that which they wish to see? Because this is something you’ve discussed and brought up at times, like “Be the way you want to be.” So, what’s the difference between that and a Swiss cheese?
ELIAS: Ah. Because an individual that is a Swiss cheese individual, they aren’t moving in a direction of BEING what they want to be; they are simply presenting a persona for other people to believe they already ARE something different than they are.
JF: Mm. They’re faking it.
ELIAS: That would be…
JF: An unflattering way of saying it. Yes, I know.
ELIAS: (Laughs) That would be a particular perception. (Laughs)
JF: Mm-hm.
ELIAS: And in that, I would say that they are aware that they aren’t that which they, in a manner of speaking, pretend to be. But, in another capacity, they ARE that to the people that they have convinced.
JF: Mm-hm. Yes. So, the deception works there.
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: And the difference with you saying to us, “Be that which you wish to seem,” is that we’re not pretending we’re that already, we are engaging a process to actually become that.
ELIAS: Yes. Yes. That you are already creating that and you are moving in the direction to claim it.
JF: Right. It’s an acknowledgment. It’s an exercise in acknowledgment, right?
ELIAS: I would agree.
JF: Okay.
ELIAS: Which is very different, because these individuals are not moving in that direction. They aren’t moving in a direction to BE that which they project as the persona. They know they aren’t that, and they aren’t moving in a direction to BE it.
JF: Is it because they believe they CAN’T accomplish that?
ELIAS: No, not necessarily. It isn’t a matter of what they can and cannot do; it is simply a matter of what appears to them to be more attractive, more sensational than what they already are. BUT, they are who they are. They aren’t attempting to be someone else; they are being themself. They are simply expressing an enhancement, an overlay to that, in being more.
JF: So, you’ve said that Swiss cheese individuals generally do not incorporate any actual trauma in their experience, that that is part of the camouflage. And I’m wondering, what motivates that?
ELIAS: Meaning? (Pause) What do you mean?
JF: Well, like what motivates the whole thing? If there’s no trauma motivating that kind of behavior, and that if they—
ELIAS: They [inaudible]. What motivates it is their perception of what is more sensational, what is more interesting, what is better. And if they express that they were a victim of something, what is important is the sensationalism OF the victimhood and then the sensationalism of how it was overcome.
JF: So, when a Swiss cheese person invokes great trauma, usually that is exaggerated?
ELIAS: You mean when they are expressing their INVENTION of trauma?
JF: Yes. I mean, basically I’m validating that yeah, these traumas that they talk about, it’s the camouflage. It didn’t actually happen that way.
ELIAS: Correct. But they are inventing that. And your question in relation to that?
JF: Well, it was validating that they do that, because you said they know that they’re fabricating these stories. So, they know that the trauma that they’re painting is not what happened?
ELIAS: Correct.
JF: Including the Swiss cheese that I know?
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: I don’t even know who these people are anymore, Elias.
ELIAS: That is what makes them so effective, is that they are very convincing.
JF: So… Hm. How did—
ELIAS: What are you confused about?
JF: Well, my mind is a little bit of a mess at the moment. (Both laugh) Let me just move on to the next question. You’ve said that Swiss cheese are aware of what they’re doing, that they’re camouflaging, but I imagine that they don’t perceive that action in the same manner that someone who notices the camouflaging does. Right? How do they typically interpret it to themselves? They’re not saying, “Oh, I’m faking this.” Right? Or they justify it somehow.
ELIAS: They justify it because that’s what they want it to be. In that, they aren’t thinking in the same capacity that you do. They aren’t thinking in terms of whether this is real or not real. They are simply thinking in relation to what they want to be, and then—
JF: The impact they have on others?
ELIAS: And—yes. And having others believe it. Therefore, they aren’t thinking about is it true, is it not true, is it real, is it not real—that isn’t what concerns them. They aren’t concerned with that. They don’t care about that. What concerns them is how realistic can they present this to be believed by other people. And then, if it IS believed by other people, then it is reinforced tremendously, and in that, adopted as the overlay. And then it will be enhanced and developed and continued, and it will continue to a point in which the individual is satisfied with the overlay, with the persona, and is satisfied with how believable it is and how much others believe it.
JF: Well, I just want to acknowledge right now that I’m disgusted.
ELIAS: Then they will continue in that direction and maintain that, and they will maintain it throughout their life.
JF: Okay. That was one of my questions. Do they die that way? Like do they take that to the grave?
ELIAS: Yes. Yes. They will continue that throughout their life entirely, yes.
JF: Because I’ve noticed that the Swiss cheese that I’ve known, they profess great involvement with developing the truth and genuineness and spirituality, but yet they never seem to move into the genuineness of the whole camouflage thing.
ELIAS: Correct. But they DO move in those directions of spirituality, of (pause) help, of healing, of educating, of many different directions that are what you would perceive as becoming more self-aware or being helpful or being in service or expanding themselves, and… And they DO expand intellectually. They learn. They are intelligent people. These are people that are very creative and very intelligent—they have to be, to maintain that illusion and so well for so long.
JF: This seems like a good time to bring in my question about the construct of honesty. Like I was mentioning, I’m noticing what is almost disdain in me in noticing the lack of honesty in the Swiss cheese, especially given that they’re aware that they’re doing it. Now, you’ve spoken of honesty as a construct.
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: What is it about the nature of consciousness and reality that the idea of honesty and integrity amounts to a construct? Is there not an absence of deception as essences interact with each other? And that the presence of dishonesty in human interactions would constitute a type of aberration almost?
ELIAS: (Chuckles) What I would say to you, my friend, is you are thinking and expressing and perceiving through the lens of your reality and your belief systems, and one of those belief systems is duplicity.
In that, that is expressed very strongly in your reality. ALL your belief systems are expressed very strongly, but in relation to duplicity, you very strongly express in the directions of good and bad and right and wrong and what is true and what is false, and in that, what is honest, what is deception. What IS all of that? What IS deception? Deception is simply a deviation from what you are expressing as a recounting of an experience, or the recounting of an expression, that your measure of that is if the recounting of something is expressed in the manner that can be verified—but verified by who?
JF: Well, I think it’s the element that they know what they’re doing. I think that’s the key point.
ELIAS: And what does that mean? It is still you are expressing through that lens of your own perception of honesty and falsehood and right and wrong. And that is why it is distressing and disgusting to you, because you are expressing that it is unconscionable because they know what they are doing.
JF: Yeah.
ELIAS: That actually doesn’t matter. I expressed to you, they aren’t thinking about the rightness or the wrongness of it. It doesn’t matter that they know that this particular action didn’t actually physically occur in their reality, but they are overlaying that reality WITH that experience because they WANT that experience to BE in their reality. Therefore, even though they are aware objectively that that experience didn’t physically occur, they are inserting it into their reality by overlaying it into their reality.
Now, in that, you could, you would, say that they are lying. But what is a lie? It is something that YOU express is an untruth. It is something that is a falsehood. And what makes it a falsehood? What makes it a falsehood is that it is something that is unverifiable; you cannot verify it by the evidence in YOUR reality. And even in THEIR reality, it wouldn’t be verified by physical evidence.
But in that, what constitutes that as being a lie? Does the person that is the Swiss cheese person concern themselves with expressing a falsehood? Are they afraid of being discovered? Not for the most part. Do they live in fear? No. Do they believe what they are expressing? No, but it doesn’t matter. They don’t care that they don’t actually believe what they are expressing. They prefer what they are expressing, and that is what matters to them. That is what is important to them.
Now, this is also the reason that there are so few Swiss cheese people in your world, relatively speaking—and there are; it is very uncommon, and the reason being that it requires a tremendous amount of energy to maintain two personas.
JF: Mm-hm.
ELIAS: Because they ARE maintaining two. Because even though they are projecting a persona for the world to see, for everyone that they encounter to see, they still are maintaining their other persona. It remains. They remain side by side. And in that, it requires a tremendous amount of energy to maintain that, and they maintain it for an entire focus.
JF: You know, the ones that I’ve interacted with, I’ve noticed similarity in… like they, for parts of their lives anyway, they get very tired physically.
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: Yeah.
ELIAS: Yes. And that is very understandable, because they are maintaining a tremendous volume of energy constantly, constantly.
JF: You know, I believe I’ll be able to move into acceptance. I just have to not live with them. (Both laugh) Maybe that will make it easier.
ELIAS: I would say that that is very understandable. And in that, I would also express to you an acknowledgment, that as I have expressed many, many, many times, you don’t have to agree to be accepting. You don’t have to like it, to be accepting. And knowing that you don’t agree or that you don’t like something, I would say that that also would be a significant piece of expressing that acknowledgment to yourself, of giving yourself permission to choose not to engage.
JF: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Yes.
We have only a few minutes left, if that. I would like to get in one more question.
ELIAS: Very well.
JF: I’ve heard various therapists and empaths say that energetically speaking, narcissists typically plug into, in a manner of speaking, the yellow energy center of others. And of course, that is either being allowed or not by the people involved; the point here is not to make victims out of anyone. But that’s where the pulling of energy occurs, in a manner of speaking. Would you validate that? And can you speak a little bit of the energy dynamics that go on there?
ELIAS: With a narcissist?
JF: Yes. But I suspect it’s similar with the Swiss cheese. I feel for people who are open or empathic, these two types can be draining, in a way. And I think that the narcissist drains through the attention that they need, and that the Swiss cheese drains more in relation to, or more specifically, the validation that they need. I suspect they kind of engage maybe in similar energy dynamics in that they really take, in a way, from others.
ELIAS: Mm. (Pause)
JF: But with the participation of the other side, of course. Like I’m not… It takes two to tango, right?
ELIAS: I understand. I understand. I would say that for a Swiss cheese individual that that may be more correct – with the participation of the other individuals. They require attention AND validation.
[The timer for the end of the session rings]
I would say that for a Swiss cheese person it is very important that they have an audience.
Now, for a narcissist, that isn’t always the situation. A narcissist actually can function quite effectively on their own, because they are ultimately expressing (chuckles) being self-absorbed. Therefore, they don’t actually require an audience. They will definitely use one and they definitely will thrive with one, but they don’t require one. And in that, that would be a significant difference, because the Swiss cheese person does require one.
And in that, I would say in relation to what individuals have expressed in association with the energy centers and individuals pulling energy from different energy centers, I would agree with the yellow, that that would be the main energy center that they would pull from. I would also say that with a Swiss cheese person, they at times would likely pull from the blue, because it would aid them in their own projection of energy, their own expression, because most of what they are projecting involves what they are communicating to other people.
JF: I understand.
We are done for today, Elias. Thank you so much. It was so informative. A lot in there, I think. For those of us who have been entangled with these kind of dynamics, it’s very helpful to get more clarity about it.
ELIAS: You are very welcome. And I would express that it has been an interesting conversation. (Both chuckle)
JF: Would you qualify that further? (Laughs)
ELIAS: I would say that it is interesting that you are paying attention and taking an interest in different expressions of people and what they are and what motivates them and how they are expressed. I would say that it definitely leads you more in the direction of being able to express acceptance.
JF: Yes. Yes.
ELIAS: Therefore, I would definitely be acknowledging of all of you.
I shall greatly be anticipating our next meeting.
JF: Me too, for sure.
ELIAS: (Laughs) In wondrous love to you, and to all of you, until our next meeting, in tremendous friendship and supportiveness, au revoir.
JF: Thank you.
[1] JF’s session 202102081. “Swiss cheese people” were first identified by Mary in a group session in 2003, Session 1368, as something she had noticed in people’s auras. She said, “Swiss cheese people are people that have all these holes in their energy field because they’re trying to be something that they’re not, and so they camouflage themselves. When you look at their energy field, their aura around them, it has holes in it and they look like Swiss cheese. “
(Elias departs after 1 hour 2 minutes)
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