Narcissists, Psychopaths and Swiss Cheese Persons
Topics:
“Unpredictability after the Mass Event: The Soda Analogy”
“Narcissists, Psychopaths and Swiss Cheese Persons”
“Creating Blocks by Not Paying Attention to You”
“Exercise: Who Do I Want to Be Today?”
Monday, February 8, 2021 (Private/Phone)
Participants: Mary (Michael) and Jean-Francois (Samta)
“How can you be aware of interconnectedness if you aren’t paying attention to you? How can you be intentional if you aren’t paying attention to you?.... Your freedom and empowerment come from choice, which comes from the moment. That is your point of power, is the moment. And in that, if you aren’t aware of yourself and what you’re doing and what you are creating, then where is your point of power?”
ELIAS: Good day!
JF: Ha! Good day, Elias!
ELIAS: (Laughs) And what shall we discuss, my friend?
JF: Aha. Ah, so much. So much. Okay, I would like to start with this question about a little less than a year ago, you were saying to us how unpredictable we were and that it was very difficult to predict how we would move into the mass event. And would you still say the same thing, that we are still on that level of unpredictability?
ELIAS: For the most part, yes. I would say that you have definitely moved and changed, and now you are engaging the aftermath of that mass event. And I would say that you’ve moved into that very quickly, astonishingly so. But in relation to the possibilities of directions, I would say that there are many, and yes, it would be difficult to be predicting. I would be suspicious of anyone that would be venturing to predict what you all will be choosing.
JF: Is the unpredictability mostly due to people becoming more self-directing? Or rather, are people distressed and therefore erratic? Or what is the unpredictability due to?
ELIAS: I would say both. I would say that there ARE many, many more people that are becoming more self-directing, more self-structuring. I would say that there still are many people that are confused and afraid. And they are actually afraid for different reasons now, but nonetheless, there still is a significant factor of fear that is prevalent in your world.
But I would also say that one of the biggest pieces that is influencing of the unpredictability is that third factor: differences. That is the piece that is very volatile and generating a lot of the unpredictability in your world, because there is so much opposition in relation to differences that it creates a very volatile situation. I would say to you [that] the world, at this point, is very similar to a soda bottle that has been shaken up, and it is almost inevitable that it will blow and spray, but in what direction it remains to be seen.
JF: Aha. All right. Well, each one of us will make our way through that, and so…
ELIAS: And I would also say that there is definitely a potential that the soda bottle WON’T blow, because if it is left alone, then it might settle. But it doesn’t appear to be being left alone yet.
JF: And the shaking is the opposition to differences?
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: Right. And it creates a lot of unfamiliar situations and encounters and interactions between people, to come face-to-face with all sorts of differences, right?
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: Mm. All right. Well, thank you for that.
Today I don’t really want Covid to eat my session (Elias laughs), so let’s talk about me a little bit. Since we talked, I have taken more steps in the direction of preparing for moving to Vancouver. I sold my car, sold more things, I’ve given my notice to leave the place that I currently live in with my roommates. I will be going to visit my family in the spring; it’s a bit of a farewell tour, but they don’t know that yet. And I’ve been planting seeds, starting to plant seeds for accommodations at the other end of the country. So, that has been going on. And—
ELIAS: I would say congratulations, my friend.
JF: Well, thank you. And I continue to develop my projects. I’m developing several Tarot workshops projects that I’ll be able to offer both online or in person.
ELIAS: Excellent!
JF: You know, when I’d started to do that before the Covid hysteria, it was a really positive experience for me, so I want to continue that.
ELIAS: Excellent.
JF: And in the midst of all that, I became quite… You know, since we spoke in November, I’ve become really stressed with my living situation, and it’s kind of fucked up my intestines again. I can see different variables or different influences in that. You know, I can see how the restrictions from the Covid hysteria didn’t help, because it removed outlets in a way – not that there were no outlets, but it did make it more complicated, already working from home and just kind of feeling imprisoned there. And different factors, but basically, the real big factor – and this is what I would like to discuss today to begin with – is follow-up on what we were talking about in narcissism last time, because this is what I’m dealing with in my living situation.
So, you said that narcissists typically become angry or aggressive when interacting with someone expressing either empathy or the empathic sense to a significant extent. Why is that? It’s easy for me to see how the empath becomes overwhelmed or depleted in such interactions, but why does the narcissist become angry? Is it because the empath will often end up becoming evasive in such situations? You know, out of necessity? Especially if they’re ongoing, and therefore not give the narcissist what he or she is after?
ELIAS: I would say that that is a piece. Not a tremendous piece, because with a narcissist, not receiving what they want isn’t generally something that makes them angry; it simply loses their attention. Anything that isn’t giving them what they want or creating their payoff or isn’t playing the game with them or expressing in some manner that they understand, they simply don’t pay attention and would move in a different direction. Genuinely, they simply don’t pay attention to people that don’t interact with them in a manner that they understand, or in a manner that they can accept—they simply ignore them. But in relation to an individual that is empathic, the reason that that is bothersome to them and that they become angry with that, remember: what is anger?
JF: Perception of lack of choice.
ELIAS: Correct. Correct. Therefore, they become angry at the situation that they are presented with, with someone that is empathic and very sensitive, because this is a presentment to them of no choices.
JF: How so?
ELIAS: Because they don’t know how to express that. Therefore, that is a presentment of no choices for them, because they don’t understand how to express in that manner.
JF: So, in a way it’s… could we say that it would be a type of expression that they would love to be expressing but it really eludes them?
ELIAS: Not entirely, no. It isn’t necessarily something that they would love to be expressing or that they would even WANT to be expressing—they don’t understand it at all.
JF: Wow.
ELIAS: Therefore, it isn’t something that they covet—definitely not. It is foreign to them, and therefore it frustrates them because they don’t understand it. It creates a type of impatience with them, and I would say that they do incorporate a perception of weakness in that.
JF: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Yeah, Mary and I had a long discussion about that before you and I started chatting, and that was one of the things we were throwing around.
ELIAS: I would say that they look at that expression in that light of weakness, in a very similar manner to how sometimes—not always—how sometimes thought-focused individuals look at people that express themselves very emotionally.
JF: Mm. Yeah. (Laughs) Yes.
ELIAS: They lose tolerance.
JF: Yes. Yes.
ELIAS: And in that, they don’t understand it. They don’t look at it as something that they want to experience--definitely not. They don’t look at it as something beneficial.
JF: Right. It looks painful.
ELIAS: Yes!
JF: Yeah.
ELIAS: And they look at it as something that should definitely be avoided, and that the person that DOES express in that manner should learn how to do it less.
JF: Can I ask you a personal question in relation to that? I relate to everything you say, you know, being thought-focused, and many times I’ve found myself assessing in similar ways as what you’re describing, but not entirely. And I think that the “not entirely” part is due to just being empathic and being able to pick up on that experience from a different angle, and maybe also using the conceptualization inner sense, where I can sort of conceive that type of experience even if I’m not experiencing it directly.
ELIAS: Correct. I would agree.
JF: You would agree. Okay. Right.
ELIAS: And I would also say that there are individuals that are thought-focused that may not necessarily be engaging their empathic sense much but that might express a considerable sensitivity. And in that, it aids them in incorporating more of an understanding of other individuals that express themselves more emotionally, and it gives them somewhat more tolerance with that. But a person that is expressing in a narcissistic direction, they don’t understand that, for the most part, at all.
JF: So, let me ask you, is it not possible for either empathy or the empathic sense to coexist with narcissistic tendencies? Might we not find all of these reunited in the same person?
ELIAS: Actually, it can. Actually, it can. Their ability to express that empathy is limited, but I would say that they definitely can develop that. They can learn how to express that. Now, I would say that it is difficult for most people that are expressing in a narcissistic capacity. It is very difficult for them to move in those directions because they have no patience for it.
JF: Mm-hm. You know, I’ve noticed people that I would say are expressing in narcissistic tendencies to a significant extent—and the reason I phrase it like this is because I don’t want to reduce someone to just that; no one is just a narcissist—but what I’ve noticed happening is that… Oh! I lost my train of thought. (Laughs) But I think I was going in a direction of saying something… that the manipulation that often accompanies narcissism I think can lead such people to almost kind of mimic empathy, but the motivation behind whatever sensitivity they might allow themselves to express at a certain time, the motivations behind that kind of distort it into something different than actual, genuine empathy.
ELIAS: I would agree.
JF: Okay.
ELIAS: I would say that what generally will influence an individual in that direction to be motivated to explore and develop their own expressions in sensitivity and empathy – which, let me express that they don’t generally move in the direction of genuine empathy much BUT that they can move in the direction of developing SYMPATHY – is significant for them. And generally speaking, what will spark that, or what will initiate that in most people that express narcissism, is if they begin to notice—which in itself is a challenge—but if they begin to notice that other people don’t like them or have issues with them or have significant problems with them-which, as I said, in itself is challenging because generally they DON’T notice that, because why would anyone have a problem with them?
JF: Yeah. (Laughs) The absence of empathy or the empathic sense, to a large extent in a person, doesn’t that make a psychopath out of them?
ELIAS: It can. It doesn’t automatically, but it can.
JF: What would be your definition of a psychopath?
ELIAS: This would be an individual that is creating a very different reality inside your reality. And in that, this type of person has created a reality in which they disassociate themselves from two very important factors. They disassociate themselves from duplicity—that doesn’t mean that they don’t include that in their reality at all, but they are disassociated from it—and they disassociate themselves from feeling. Therefore, they have disassociated themselves from emotional communications, and they have tremendous difficulty in experiencing feelings. Because the feelings are the signals that alert you to the emotional communications, but they have disassociated themselves from the emotional communications, and therefore they generally don’t feel much. This is also the reason that they are generally prone to extreme behaviors, because they don’t feel; therefore, they require extreme behaviors and experiences to generate those feeling signals.
Now, in that, just as most of you in your reality, they also want to follow the feelings. But I would say for these individuals even more so, because they only feel in extremes and because they have no association with emotional communications—for the only piece that they engage IS the feeling, and for them, for the most part, feelings being those signals but not having any emotional communication to be connected with, the feelings are fleeting. Therefore, they are inclined to chase them.
JF: Hm. Let me also ask you in contrast, what’s the difference between a narcissist and a Swiss cheese person?
ELIAS: Ah! Very well. I would say what has been classified as a Swiss cheese person is an individual that is definitely participating in your reality in very similar capacities as you, but that these individuals are dissatisfied with their reality—or what they are creating in their reality, for the most part—and therefore they want to change it. But they aren’t what you would term to be delusional, and they aren’t actually creating a very different reality. Therefore, in that, what they are doing is they are…
JF: So, are you saying narcissists ARE delusional?
ELIAS: What I am saying is YOU would perhaps classify them as being delusional.
JF: Yeah. (Laughs) Mm-hm.
ELIAS: Because they are creating a very different reality than yourself, but a Swiss cheese person isn’t. They are creating camouflages. They create diversions, camouflage in which they create a facade that is a mask. It is a different presentment of themselves.
JF: So, let me ask you – sorry to interrupt. The person that I’m identifying as a narcissist in my life right now—which need not be named, I know you know who I’m talking about: Is that person more of a Swiss cheese person or a narcissist?
ELIAS: (Pause) Actually, I would say more of a Swiss cheese person.
JF: Wow. Well, that’s fucked up, too.
ELIAS: (Laughs) In YOUR reality.
JF: And this person that I was friends with for a long time, he’s more of a narcissist?
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: Yeah. Okay. Ah. So, Swiss cheese. How many Swiss cheese people are in the world? Can you put a percentage on that? How common is it?
ELIAS: It isn’t as common.
JF: Okay. There’s—
ELIAS: I would say that this is something that requires a considerable amount of energy.
JF: Yeah!
ELIAS: And a considerable amount of concentration, which is also one of the reasons that a person that is a Swiss cheese person, with some people they have little patience or tolerance for because it requires so much more energy on their part to maintain the facade.
JF: I can see that. I can see that. What about [name]? Maybe less so now, but throughout her life has she been more of a narcissist or a Swiss cheese?
ELIAS: I’d say more of the latter.
JF: Swiss cheese? So, my big problem has been the Swiss cheese.
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: Ha!
ELIAS: Which is somewhat interesting, because these people are much less common, and therefore to present any number of them in your life is unusual.
JF: So, why do I create this unusualness? What is it?
ELIAS: And I would say, what is it? What fascinates you with these people?
JF: Fascinates me? (Elias chuckles) Fascinates me.
ELIAS: Not that you are fascinated with them per se, to be observing them, but more so the presentment of them to be aware of yourself in some capacity. What would you say? And don’t move in the direction of automatically thinking that you draw them to yourself because you are doing that, because that is incorrect.
JF: Okay. Well, I can see that throughout my life it’s been a subject to be genuine, you know. And you told me once that I tend to surround myself with people who express in genuine ways. I think I’m always concerned about being genuine.
ELIAS: I would agree. And I would express that in that, it is also a presentment of genuine acceptance.
JF: Of self, first.
ELIAS: Of self first, and then of others.
JF: Yeah. Acceptance. Acceptance, my old friend.
ELIAS: (Laughs) And that can be considerably challenging when you are presenting yourself with those types of differences. But I would say acceptance is challenging, period. Therefore, in giving yourself extremes, then it becomes easier to be accepting in other situations and with other people.
JF: It does make an impression. Hm. So, I’ve attracted these people, and actually inserted myself into this physical focus with that very subject, or that very presentment, from the get-go.
ELIAS: I would agree.
JF: Because it’s been important to me to develop, cultivate that subject of acceptance of self.
ELIAS: Genuineness.
JF: Genuineness. (Pause) Well! I really love talking to you. You just find things out. (Both laugh) Hm.
All right. Well, I’ll mull over that, and I imagine that there will be perhaps more conversation about this in the future, you know, taking for granted that there IS a future. And… that was a joke, by the way.
ELIAS: I am aware. (Both laugh)
JF: And I didn’t mean it necessarily in relation to me personally. I was just looking at the world.
A connected subject to all of this: keeping attention on self. You said that not keeping attention on self creates a blockage, as in it holds energy. Can you elaborate on that?
ELIAS: Now, think about that. What would your assessment be? Or how would you see that?
JF: Well, if your attention is not on self, then it would be very difficult to express one’s own flow. It would be… You know, we would be expressing things, but genuine things, or energy within, wouldn’t necessarily be flowing out of me, right? It would be held there. Is that what you meant?
ELIAS: Partially. But also, I would say that if you aren’t paying attention to you, then you DO create blocks. How can you be aware of interconnectedness if you aren’t paying attention to you? How can you be intentional if you aren’t paying attention to you? How can you be aware of your choices, or even aware of who you are and what your motivations are, if you aren’t paying attention to you? Therefore, it does create blocks.
JF: Mm-hm.
ELIAS: And in that, it creates blocks in relation to your freedom and your empowerment. Your freedom and empowerment come from choice, which comes from the moment. That is your point of power, is the moment. And in that, if you aren’t aware of yourself and what you’re doing and what you are creating, then where is your point of power? How can you be intentionally creating your reality? How can you not be a victim, if you are not even aware that you ARE creating all of your reality?
And that comes from paying attention to yourself. In every moment in the day, I would say that there are SO many times when individuals within their day are not paying attention to themself and what they are doing. And therefore, if they don’t live alone, if they share cohabitation with anyone else, including nonhumans, then there is a constant interaction that is occurring; and if anything occurs in the individual’s reality that they don’t like that is being expressed by the other being in their reality, they don’t automatically question what they themselves are participating in or what they themselves are doing. They immediately are paying attention to what the other person or the other being is doing that they don’t like.
JF: In continuing to look at this subject and develop a greater momentum of keeping attention on self, I was wondering, what would be a good anchor for me in that? Because I have a certain sensitivity to energy and the energy field and the body consciousness, I was thinking well, maybe I can use that as a sort of anchor point in my attention, how I sense the energy of my person. Is that something you would agree with?
ELIAS: Hm…
JF: Is that tricky because of my tendency to also focus on my body consciousness in a way that it can be in concern?
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: Mm-hm. So, what would be a good anchor then?
ELIAS: (Pause) That could be tricky with you.
JF: (Laughs) Why?
ELIAS: The reason I say that is because your body consciousness definitely would NOT be advisable, but then I would say that you can be very distracted by energy also. And in that, especially in relation to other people, you can be distracted by their energy and definitely not paying attention to yourself.
In this, (pause) I would say thinking.
JF: Ah!
ELIAS: That you could use your thinking to ground yourself. You could use your thinking to be an anchor; therefore, paying attention to your thinking differently, [and] in that, paying attention to your thinking in relation to duplicity. This would be an example of using one of the belief systems that most people want to avoid and that most people automatically perceive as the worst belief system. This would be actually a manner in which you could use it to a definite benefit, because if you are using it in relation to your thinking, and therefore very simply paying attention to your thinking and asking yourself very simply with all and any of your thinking, “Which direction is this moving in? Is this moving in a good or bad direction? Is it moving in a direction that is comfortable or uncomfortable?”
JF: Yeah, “What am I adding to?”
ELIAS: Yes.
JF: Mm-hm. I do that sometimes, but you’re suggesting that I could do this on a consistent basis as a mechanism to help me keep my attention on self.
ELIAS: Because this would be a manner in which you can be evaluating in relation to your thinking what direction is your thinking taking.
JF: Mm-hm. Okay. All right. I accept that suggestion. Thank you.
ELIAS: You are welcome.
JF: You know, and in keeping attention on self, that doesn’t mean that you don’t feel the surrounding energies, right?
ELIAS: Of course not. Of course you would.
JF: I sort of thought that as I do that more, I would be less affected by the surrounding energies, but I think I made that shortcut where to not be affected I wouldn’t feel them as much.
ELIAS: No. That would be incorrect.
JF: Yeah, as I’m finding out. (Both laugh)
You remember last year I brought up the subject of shielding, and you said that because I’m personalizing, that I was transferring energy from the yellow to the green as I’m shielding. And then we later validated that I was shielding less. Now I would ask you… I think now, whenever I take a hit in the yellow, there is less of a transfer going to the green, and I keep it more in the yellow and address it to it there directly. Would you agree?
ELIAS: I would agree.
JF: Which is part of the explanation of why the yellow is all messed up again. (Elias laughs) Can you say something encouraging to me, Elias, about my intestines? Is it possible?
ELIAS: (Chuckles) What I would say to you, my friend, is I would very, very much encourage you to be engaging the exercise that I have expressed to some other individuals. This is perhaps going to seem to you to be somewhat of a paradox presently.
JF: Okay.
ELIAS: Because we have been talking about paying attention to yourself.
JF: Yes.
ELIAS: And now I am going to give you an exercise that is specifically designed to move your attention away from you.
JF: Ah. Yes. And I can see why. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Ah! Excellent. (Laughs)
Now; this exercise is ABOUT you, but directed away from you. This is the exercise of simply asking yourself, “Who do I want to be today?” and then answering that with a one-word action word, a doing word, something you can actually do. And it doesn’t only apply to other people.
JF: Who do I want to be for myself, you mean?
ELIAS: No, no, no, no. “Who do I want to be today?”
JF: Yes?
ELIAS: If you answer that question “I want to be encouraging,” “I want to be listening,” “I want to be kind,” “I want to be supportive,” “I want to be enthusiastic,” “I want to be silly”—whatever the word is that you insert into that statement of who you want to be that day, that applies to every situation all day long.
JF: Okay.
ELIAS: And it doesn’t matter if you encounter other people, because that word can be applied to anything. It can be applied to people, it can be applied to other beings such as creatures and plants. It can be applied to things, therefore objects. It can be applied to anything.
JF: But I get it. It’s like an exercise of “Who do I want to be?” but “How do I want to express?” And in the expressing and putting the focus on the quality of the expressing, it takes it away from the immediacy of like me just being so… my attention being hogged on my own self and body consciousness, right?
ELIAS: Correct.
JF: Yeah. Right. And—
ELIAS: Because it isn’t about you. You aren’t paying attention to you per se; you are paying attention to HOW you are engaging that outside source.
JF: Yes. Yes. I totally see why you’re suggesting that to me. So at the same time as I’m using the thinking on the subject of duplicity to help me keep a certain kind of attention on myself, I can also practice the exercise you just gave me.
ELIAS: Correct.
JF: Thank you.
ELIAS: And that moves your attention away from you in a manner that will help you to not be so focused on yourself in relation to what you are doing constantly, and therefore what you are constantly creating in reaction to your environment.
JF: Concentration: that remains the biggest factor in me creating uncomfortable situations with my digestive system? All right, say no more. (Both laugh) Say no more.
Okay. I have a few questions for other people as we near the end of the session. By the way, I’m really enjoying our conversation today.
ELIAS: You are very welcome. (Laughs)
JF: Sandra: I mean, what a ray of light. I was wondering if you would have updated encouragements for her as, you know, the people that we are close to her, we’re really inspired by her spirits, her attitude, her magic. But can you offer some updated encouragement?
ELIAS: I would say simply that she is accomplishing precisely what she is setting out to accomplish.
JF: Mm. I love that. Thank you.
ELIAS: You are welcome.
JF: Thank you. I mean, that’s what it looks like, but then it’s good to hear you say it.
ELIAS: I would say that all of you that are observing and supporting [inaudible], you should be encouraged – and inspired.
JF: Oh definitely. Definitely. Thank you.
ELIAS: You are welcome.
JF: I have a question for Lady Lamb, Lyla. She’s asking, “In the same vein of Karen’s natural essence flow being the big fish, what would mine be?” And she’s wondering if perhaps that would be focused and intentional.
ELIAS: (Pause) Oh, I would definitely agree with that.
JF: Mm-hm. But is that what you would have come up with? Or would you have said something else?
ELIAS: I would agree, and I would have said the same.
JF: Ah! What would you say about me?
ELIAS: (Pause) I would say with you, you are very intent.
JF: Okay.
ELIAS: Whatever direction you move in, you are very intent with it.
JF: Right. That’s part of the obsessive-compulsive thing, isn’t it? (Elias laughs) Or rather, the obsessive-compulsive thing comes from that. (Elias laughs) I own it, that’s fine.
[Section omitted]
JF: Well, thank you very much for that, and that maybe will help to create some movement.
Just to end, very quickly, I wanted to ask you the three inner senses: Would you agree if I told you the most developed in me is the empathic, the second most developed is conceptualization, and the third is differential time.
ELIAS: Correct.
JF: And conceptualization is not that far away from how much I have developed the empathic sense?
ELIAS: I would agree.
JF: Okay. There’s a difference, but it… There’s more of a distance, in terms of depth of development. There’s more of a distance between conceptualization and differential time than there is between the empathic and the conceptualization?
ELIAS: I agree.
JF: Okay. Okay. You know, it’s funny: you do these things all your life and you don’t even know what they are.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) I would agree. And once again, the importance of paying attention to you.
JF: Ah! Yes.
Well, thank you so much, Elias. This was a really… I just got so much out of our conversation and, you know, I just… tremendous appreciation for you.
ELIAS: You are very welcome, my friend. And I express tremendous encouragement to you.
And now that you have more clarity as to what you are presenting to yourself with other people, and what you have presented to yourself in challenges in relation to other people, that may be significantly changing the game, so to speak.
JF: I’m ready for a game-changer. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: Excellent! (Laughs) I shall greatly be anticipating our next meeting, my friend.
JF: Me too.
ELIAS: In wondrous love to you and dear friendship, as always, au revoir.
JF: Au revoir.
(Elias departs after 1 hour)
©2021 Mary Ennis. All Rights Reserved.
Copyright 2021 Mary Ennis, All Rights Reserved.