Session 1612



“Discussing a Problem with a Business Partner”

Tuesday, August 24, 2004 (Phone/Private)

Participants: Mary (Michael) and Frank (Ulra)

(Elias’ arrival time is 12 seconds.)

ELIAS: Good morning!

FRANK: Good morning! How are you today?

ELIAS: As always.

FRANK: And I am as I am today!

ELIAS: (Laughs) Very well!

FRANK: I have a bunch of things to talk to you about, as usual. So, why don’t I start with my usual practice and start with the dream that I had last night. In this dream, I was in the back seat of a convertible that was being driven by my parents. Something happens and the car flipped over, was like completely upside down, and we were in the car on the ground. I don’t have any clue what this is about.

ELIAS: (Chuckles) No impressions?

FRANK: Well, since it’s my parents, it’s something to do with authority.

ELIAS: Correct.

FRANK: Actually, as I recall it, my father was driving, and he made a kind of funny turn. I was saying, “Hey, don’t do that,” and then the thing flipped over.

ELIAS: It is concerning authority, but it is also more so concerning control and the lack of control, and the potential danger that is perceived in situations in which you are not expressing control.

FRANK: Danger that I perceive?

ELIAS: Yes, and how that is influenced by your perception of authority, that there is less control if you are engaging an individual that you perceive to be an authority.

FRANK: When in reality, I have the same control.

ELIAS: Correct, but you view yourself to being less powerful and therefore incorporating a lack of control.

FRANK: In terms of an authority, these things will come to mind like a police officer or someone like that, but it probably goes beyond that?


FRANK: Can you give me some examples of...?

ELIAS: Very well. I may express to you that there is an element of perceived authority, of a type, with individuals such as your partner or your business associate. Not necessarily that they are an authority to you, but that they represent an authority figure of a type. Therefore, this same influence will, in certain situations, apply with them also.

FRANK: Boy, this is interesting, because this is going to be a big topic of our discussion in this session. Okay, so this is a perception that I have, that you say there is danger perceived.

ELIAS: The reason there is a perceived potential danger is that you are not entirely acknowledging your own power and your own freedom. Therefore, you incorporate a perception of a lack of control. For in certain situations, the authority of the other individual, in their role which is perceived by you, in a manner of speaking sets you in a position of less action or even somewhat of a victim, for it limits your choices in association with their role and their position of authority. Therefore, you become subject to their choices.

FRANK: I can see all that, but it’s actually something I do myself.


FRANK: Actually, it’s not even unconscious. I mean, I’m pretty aware of it. I guess I do it to not rock the boat.

ELIAS: Yes, precisely.

FRANK: So you’re saying I could choose to rock the boat...

ELIAS: It is not necessarily that black and white, for it is not a situation of necessarily in your terms “rocking the boat,” but rather allowing yourself to express your creativity, allowing yourself to express your freedom with cooperation and in acknowledgment of the other individual and of your appreciation of the other individual, but not limiting yourself, recognizing that it is not necessary to be in agreement with another individual to also express cooperation, and not to be expressing threat with another individual, regardless that you may not necessarily agree with their choices.

FRANK: Well, I think what it comes down to here is my perception of that is our choices are diametrically opposed, so it’s one or the other thing. They’re choosing one thing, and I’m choosing something else. So how do we cooperate on that basis?

ELIAS: You evaluate the balance. You recognize that it is not necessarily an either/or situation and that there are more than two choices.

FRANK: I’ll tell you what, when we start talking about some specifics here, I’m going to see if you can show me that.

ELIAS: Very well.

FRANK: Actually, I have some other things, but why don’t we move right into that? One of the big things I wanted to talk to you about today is that with my business partner, we have certain issues relating to personnel within our company. Basically what it kind of comes down to is a couple of things. Number one, we have a totally different perception of the amount of work that people are doing and the quality of work that they’re doing. He thinks it’s very good and that a lot of work is being produced, and I feel that in fact the work is not very good at all and that people aren’t working very hard at all. Part of this is compounded by the fact that two of our employees, two of our most highly paid employees, are his children, one of whom, in my eyes, does almost no work at all. This is the exact situation that you were referring to with regard to this dream. I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I need to approach him on it. I’m about to but yet I’m reluctant, based on the things you just talked about.

ELIAS: Now; were you to be engaging this individual, what would you propose to the individual?

FRANK: Well, I guess I would propose a couple of things. Number one, we need to make our people work harder — put in other words, put in more time at work and while they’re there to do more work. Number two, they need to improve the quality of what they do.

ELIAS: And what would you suggest to this individual specifically in regard to the amount of work and the type of work?

FRANK: I’m not sure what you mean other than what I just said, that they need to do more.

ELIAS: Which is quite general. What I am expressing to you, my friend, is that this is a commonly expressed type of exchange, which generates fertile ground for conflict and also is easily interpreted as a threat with the other individual.

Now; this is also what I am expressing in relation to more than two choices. If you are attempting to generate a cooperation with another individual and you recognize that you are not in agreement, it is significant that you express yourself clearly and specifically, for if you engage in generalities with another individual, it allows the other individual to interpret your energy precisely in the manner that you are projecting it, in a vague manner. In such situation, it allows the other individual to generate their own interpretation and configure that energy in many different manners. Generally speaking, it allows the other individual to configure that energy precisely in the manner that you expect but that you do not want.

FRANK: In other words, I expect he won’t react well.

ELIAS: Correct.

FRANK: Obviously that’s not what I want, which is why I have been reluctant to talk about it.

ELIAS: Correct. Generally speaking, that is precisely what you would generate.

FRANK: That’s why I held off having this conversation prior to talking to you.

ELIAS: Now; if you offer the other individual clearer specific information, it allows the other individual to receive your energy in a different manner, which shall influence the other individual to evaluate what you are expressing. That, in a manner of speaking, prompts the other individual in the situation to be expressing more of a cooperation, for there is no perceived threat, there is no expectation, and there is an offering of information. Therefore, the other individual does not receive your energy in a manner in which their automatic response would be defense.

Therefore, if you are evaluating, yourself, what specifically you want to be accomplished within your business and what specific actions or tasks are to be accomplished, and you are evaluating specifically what you perceive is not being accomplished, you allow yourself more clarity within your interaction with the other individual.

FRANK: To come back to where you started out about if I were to do this now and I said here’s what I want, if I were to say that I want each individual to work a full day, at least a full day, and with respect to the work they do, to carefully check their work and to make sure there are no errors prior to distributing it to the client, is that the sort of thing you’re talking about?

ELIAS: You wish the individual to be engaging their tasks within a specific time framework of what you term to be a full day. Very well.

Now; what are their tasks?

FRANK: Well, each individual is assigned a number of clients that they work on, and they produce reports for these clients.

ELIAS: Very well.

FRANK: It’s much more complicated than that, and it varies by client...

ELIAS: Very well.

FRANK: ...but work is assigned to them.

ELIAS: But in this, it is significant that you are expressing to the other individual much more specifically than you are expressing to myself. I am understanding it is not necessary for you to be role-playing, in your terms, with myself and expressing the specific actions with myself. But it is significant that you allow yourself to evaluate specifically, and in your interaction with the other individual, to be expressing yourself specifically, not in generalities.

FRANK: I understand.

ELIAS: In a manner of speaking, you are presenting your evaluation to the other individual in YOUR report, in what you would express as a detailed account of what you want.

FRANK: And maybe what you’re saying deals with this, but obviously my big concern is the fact that one of the people that we pay the most money to who does the least work is his daughter. Obviously, I’m very reluctant to approach him about this, because frankly my perception is that he’s sort of blind to this whole thing. But I guess what you’re saying goes the same way there, too.

ELIAS: Let me express to you also, the manner in which you express without incorporating threat with the other individual is to allow yourself to express yourself in association with what you want but not to be expressing in discounting. Your expectation that your energy shall not be well received is potentially, highly potentially, correct. For you are already projecting an energy of judgment and of discounting, which is not an energy of cooperation. It is an offensive energy of challenge, and in challenging, you generate an energy that reflects to your defensiveness.

Now; the reason that it reflects defensiveness is that underlyingly you are already also projecting an energy of defense yourself, for you are anticipating and expecting opposition. In association with the other individual’s role as a type of authority, that influences your perception more strongly and influences your own expression of defense, which is projected in a manner of an offense and challenge, which is the attempt to override the defensive. Generally speaking, that type of movement and energy and interaction produces precisely what you expect.

FRANK: So really what you’re saying, the two key things here are a) I have to be very specific, and b) offer information and not be discounting, but really more of just a cooperative thing as we’re in this both together and we need to work out the problem.

ELIAS: Or not necessarily to approach the situation as a problem, but to acknowledge what has been accomplished and what is being accomplished, and to offer an exchange in cooperation to express more efficiency and therefore greater yield, recognizing that you incorporate more than two choices and that there has been accomplishment.

Your business is moving, and you are accomplishing within it. You may not necessarily be accomplishing in the manner that you want, and therefore, you are sharing information to be generating that cooperation to be accomplishing more of what you want, but exchanging with the individual in a manner in which you are acknowledging and you are expressing that appreciation.

FRANK: Yeah, that’s a good point. Actually, this comes to the next topic that I was going to bring up, or one of the topics I wanted to talk about. I saw the most recent financial statement for our company a few days ago, and I was kind of shocked because our revenue keeps going up but we’re not making any money. I do think about some of these things, so did I generate that to kind of bring all this to a head to talk about these other issues?

ELIAS: As a motivation, yes.

FRANK: Yeah, as a motivation, as a way to broach the subject. In other words, I think I do this sometimes when there are things I find difficult to face. I create a crisis to force it.

ELIAS: In actually, this is a method that many individuals incorporate. If you are expressing an anticipation of an interaction that you perceive to be uncomfortable or potentially uncomfortable, you create some type of situation or imagery that shall offer you an excuse to engage the situation. For if you incorporate an excuse or a viable reason, it allows you justification.

FRANK: Is that the main reason for that imagery, or is there more to it?

ELIAS: The justification would be the strongest expression in association with the imagery, which is also linked to the aspect of the authority. For if you offer yourself justification, you almost become equal — not quite, for there continues to be some hesitation, which is your indication that you are not perceiving yourself to be entirely equal. But it allows you to generate almost an equal ground, so to speak, with the other individual.

FRANK: Let’s come back to that, this business about the authority thing. So with regard to where I am right now, what is your suggestion? I just need to realize that there really are no authority figures?

ELIAS: That is one aspect of the situation, correct. You are not an authority and neither is the other individual. You are generating precisely what you have labeled the situation, a partnership.

FRANK: How does he perceive it?

ELIAS: As a partnership.

FRANK: So he sees it as a partnership, but I see him as getting some higher status.

ELIAS: Not necessarily that he incorporates a higher status, but you do view yourself differently. You do not view yourself as an authority, but you view the other individual as incorporating that role. That is what generates the hesitation and the triggering of these different beliefs.

FRANK: Why do I see him as an authority? Is it because somehow deep down I feel like I don’t deserve the share of the business that I have or something?

ELIAS: No, it is merely that you perceive the other individual in the role that he occupies as you would with any other individual that owns or controls any other business. The difference is that you do not perceive yourself in that role. Therefore, it is not that you perceive yourself to be undeserving; you merely do not perceive yourself to be an authority.

FRANK: (Laughs) I’d like to disagree with you on that, but I know you’re always right, so... I have to start calling you Yoda or something! (Elias laughs)

Well, let’s talk about that. I do see myself as an authority, maybe just not with respect to him. I mean, to a very large extent within the company, I am the authority...

ELIAS: I am understanding.

FRANK: ...more so than he is.

ELIAS: I am understanding. But you do not necessarily perceive yourself in that role. You may incorporate the actions, and you may incorporate decisions and choices, but you do not necessarily perceive yourself as an authority figure.

FRANK: Oh, you just mean generally?


FRANK: I guess I don’t, and I don’t because...

ELIAS: You perceive yourself to be a cooperative.

FRANK: Right. I don’t really like authority figures.

ELIAS: I am aware. Therefore, you perceive yourself to be a cooperative, for that is more in keeping with your preferences. You are a cooperative with your games and your teammates. You are a cooperative with your family, you are a cooperative with your business, and you do not perceive yourself to be an authority figure. But you automatically perceive other individuals to be an authority figure, of a type, in whatever role they express. Your partner, as the mother of your children, is perceived to be an authority figure of a type. Your partner within your business is also perceived to be an authority figure of a type.

FRANK: I don’t like seeing myself as an authority figure, and I don’t. It’s kind of like I don’t want people telling me what to do, and I don’t like forcing other people to do things. Then how do I move into a different expression here, relative to all this?

ELIAS: It is not necessary. It is not necessary for you to alter your perception and perceive yourself to be an authority. In actuality, with you individually, it is more efficient that you do not perceive yourself to be an authority, for that allows you to generate a cooperation with the other individual more easily. For you are not instructing or demanding, but rather seeking to express a cooperation and sharing.

FRANK: Is the solution not to see them as authorities, at least not relative to me? Is that what you’re saying?

ELIAS: Not necessarily. But to acknowledge that you do incorporate that belief, and rather than expressing automatic responses in association with that belief, allowing yourself to acknowledge that you do incorporate this expressed belief that there are other individuals within your world, within your reality, that you do perceive to be in a position or a role of authority. But that does not negate your choices or your freedom, and you may choose which influence to express in association with that belief.

Now; in expressing automatic responses to that belief, generally speaking you express hesitation and you restrict your choices, for you are allowing an influence in which the belief of authority expresses that you incorporate less control than the other individual, for they express the authority. But there are other influences of that belief.

There is an influence in which you appreciate the other individual’s power, and you appreciate their contribution to your interactions in that authority, that they also incorporate a freedom of movement in choices and decisions to be generating a production in association with the business that is satisfying, and that their contribution, in being the authority, is significant.

FRANK: So it’s not just a one-way street, is what you’re saying.

ELIAS: Correct.

FRANK: That is very helpful. This was a pretty important thing that I wanted to talk to you about. I’m glad we had this opportunity to do that.

Let me move on to some other things here. I have a variety of things to talk to you about, strange little things that have happened that I don’t understand. Well, I’ll start with one here. About two or three weeks ago we found a kitten that had its paw stuck in a grate connected to our house. We brought the kitten in, tried to take care of it overnight, didn’t really know what to do with it, and finally I ended up giving it to a veterinarian who is supposed to find a home for it. The whole time that we were dealing with this little kitten, I was thinking okay, what is this imagery? I don’t have any idea about it.

ELIAS: (Chuckles) I may express to you, this is quite obvious, in actuality, and is a presentment to you of your response, your automatic response, and also your choices, which are also an illustration of your preferences, in association with rescuing and fixing. Your preference is not to be rescuing and fixing, but your automatic response was to rescue and to attempt to be fixing. Subsequently, you also allowed yourself choice, not in automatic response but more in association with preference.

FRANK: You mean to get rid of it?

ELIAS: Yes. (Laughs with Frank)

FRANK: Now let’s talk about my partner. What was her reason for this?

ELIAS: Partially similar, but more associated with personal responsibility in association with fixing.

FRANK: In other words, she’s responsible to fix things?

ELIAS: Yes, which is also associated with her perception of her role, which is changing but is still being expressed.

FRANK: With our children starting to move out, I suppose that’s affecting her a lot.


FRANK: I’m starting to see that she’s starting to feel more freedom, as am I.


FRANK: Which I think is more important for her, but maybe not. (Elias chuckles) I think she’s more constrained by the feeling that she’s got to take care of those things.

ELIAS: Yes, which is the issue of personal responsibility.

FRANK: Now here’s another one. (Elias laughs) About a month ago, right before we were leaving to go on vacation, there was a skunk living underneath the stoop to our house. You could sort of smell it in the house. It wasn’t horrible, but you could definitely smell it. What about that one? Again, I tried to say what is this all about. There’s some message here, but I didn’t get it.

ELIAS: Concerning underlying irritations.

FRANK: Oh, that again!

ELIAS: Which we have been engaging discussion of throughout this interaction. (Chuckles)

FRANK: Yes. We talked about it a lot last time, so obviously I didn’t get it. (Elias laughs) It was interesting, because then it just went away. It just left. I think I better go back and reread what we talked about last time on this subject.

ELIAS: And you may be generating similar ease in sharing with your partner in your business.

FRANK: Ah, you mean similar ease, like in making the skunk go away?

ELIAS: Correct.

FRANK: That’s the goal. (Elias chuckles) Now that we’ve talked, I think maybe... Well, we’ll see. I hope that I’ll be able to do that. But we should talk about that next time...

ELIAS: Very well!

FRANK: ...because it’s something I’m going to address pretty soon. That’s a good goal, make the skunk go away. (Elias laughs)

Now here’s another one. While I was on vacation, I got a speeding ticket up in Wisconsin. My perception of that was that it had something to do with authority. I clearly see traffic cops as authorities, and the purpose was to a) make me more aware, and b) what it ended up doing was constraining me. It made me feel constrained. So, I don’t know — maybe it was just a recognition of how authority makes me feel constrained.

ELIAS: Correct, and your automatic responses and how that restricts you.

FRANK: Right, how my automatic response to authority is this feeling of a loss of freedom.

ELIAS: Correct, and you recoil. Therefore, you restrict yourself, for you limit your choices. Automatic responses may be quite limiting, as I have expressed many times.

Now; as I have also expressed previously, some automatic responses, once evaluated, may be preferred, and you may continue to choose some automatic responses. But many of your automatic responses are limiting, for it does not allow you to recognize that you do incorporate other choices.

FRANK: I don’t remember at the exact moment that this was all occurring what my thought process was, but I’ve often thought about this before, if between the instant where you see the cop’s light flashing behind you so you know you’re being pulled over for something, if at that moment you can — and I know theoretically from talking to you that I could change it — have the guy talk to me and walk away and not give me a ticket.

ELIAS: Correct.

FRANK: But I guess that again that requires not falling into this automatic response.

ELIAS: Correct.

FRANK: That’s what prevents me from making that choice.

ELIAS: But let me express to you also, my friend, many, many situations that you generate are purposeful, regardless of whether they are comfortable or not, for they offer you an opportunity to be aware of your automatic responses and of your expressed beliefs. Many of these types of beliefs are expressed ongoingly, but they are also somewhat underlying. They are not presented to you continuously. They are always being expressed, but they become more subtle, in a manner of speaking, for you are not continuously noticing and aware, which is what generates more of an ease in expressing automatic responses and what generates more difficulty in noticing automatic responses. For the belief is being expressed underlyingly in extended time frameworks, and therefore, you are not necessarily objectively paying attention to it. Thusly, you generate what appears at times to be random situations in which you offer yourself the opportunity to remind yourself of that belief and what the automatic responses are.

FRANK: Sure, I understand. What it also kind of reminds me of is this goal that I certainly have, and a lot of people do, of being a conscious creator of everything. Again, it brings it back to why this awareness is so important to have.

ELIAS: Correct, and also recognizing that you are not eliminating beliefs. They do not go away. It is a matter of choice in the moment.

FRANK: I’m glad you brought that up, because that made me think of something we talked about last time, too. One of the things we discussed was that I was concerned about or reluctant to increase the volume of business because of the amount extra work it would create for me. Since then, I think I’ve dealt with that, because I’m starting to really increase the volume of business and actually my work isn’t changing much at all.

ELIAS: But now you incorporate the expectation of increasing the volume of work, so to speak, with the other individuals.

FRANK: Is that why that’s come to a head more?


FRANK: Ah ha! Well, better them than me. (Laughing)

ELIAS: This is a matter of delegating and acknowledging the abilities of the other individuals to assume that delegation.

FRANK: Well, I think I’ve done that.

ELIAS: Partially. But it does not meet what you want, yet.

FRANK: Let’s put it this way. It’s been what I wanted, but they haven’t quite done it yet... (Elias laughs) I just feel like it’s going to have to happen, and they’re going to have to do it. That’s just the way it is. Because I don’t like to work! (Elias laughs)

ELIAS: I am aware! As we have discussed previously. (Laughs)

FRANK: Yeah, I don’t need to work. (Laughs with Elias) So there!

ELIAS: But you may be quite accomplished at delegating. (Laughs)

FRANK: Yeah, so I better get good at that. A few quick things here, because we’re getting short on time. An interesting thing, a gentleman that I hired — we’ve actually talked about him in the past at the beginning of this year, and you had said we had several focuses together. But interestingly, he felt like a three-year-old son that for some reason, he and I... He has really taken to me, a lot. So, I assume we’ve had some relationships together.


FRANK: I don’t really have any impressions of anything there.

ELIAS: You have incorporated many focuses together, and many of those focuses have been expressed in family relationships of different capacities.

FRANK: I’ll see if I can get some impressions there. (Elias chuckles) It’s just really interesting, fascinating the way this has been sort of like a connection with a small child.

ELIAS: Which is also a recognition of appreciation and an example to you of appreciation.

FRANK: Appreciation for what?

ELIAS: Appreciation of your energy.

FRANK: By him?


FRANK: I’m not sure I get that.

ELIAS: It is expressed freely, it is recognized, and it is responded to, and what does that prompt within you? As you receive that appreciation, what do you feel?

FRANK: I feel good.

ELIAS: Correct. This is an example. Apply that to your situation with your partner of your business.

FRANK: Okay, I got it. Good point. As long as you brought that up, generally speaking do I... I mean, I think I appreciate him.

ELIAS: Yes, but you are discussing a specific situation. What I am expressing is not merely the appreciation of that one individual and his role, but also some appreciation of the other individuals that you are discussing, rather than incorporating the energy of disappointment and discounting and expectation, but sharing information incorporating also the energy of appreciation, which creates the door for cooperation and generates much more of an ease.

FRANK: Just a couple more quick things.

ELIAS: Very well!

FRANK: We’ve covered this kind of thing before, but let me ask you anyway. My wife and I are thinking of building a vacation home in the country, but I have some concerns along financial lines, with everything else that’s going on. I know you told me in the past don’t worry about those things, that I pretty much generate money whenever I need it. Any other thoughts on that, though?

ELIAS: Examine your hesitancy.

FRANK: It’s fear of not having the finances to take care of it.

ELIAS: Not necessarily.

FRANK: Oh, really? (Elias chuckles) Is it the concern that I don’t really want it?

ELIAS: Not necessarily, but it is associated with a concern of responsibility and work. (Chuckles)

FRANK: Oh, that I’ll need to work more because of it?

ELIAS: Not necessarily that you need be incorporating more work with your business...

FRANK: No, no, I mean on the house.

ELIAS: Correct. (Chuckles)

FRANK: But I can get rid of that, too, and let somebody else do that.

ELIAS: Correct, and that would be another choice. (Both laugh) But that is an example of another automatic response. Acknowledge yourself at how quickly you altered that automatic response and discovered a different choice. (Both laugh)

FRANK: Okay, two last things. I still have problems with my left elbow. I’m in therapy and all that, and it’s just that nothing seems to be coming around. Can you give me any assistance there?

ELIAS: I may express to you to be gentle with yourself and to acknowledge yourself in your preferences concerning playfulness, and not to be generating expectations of yourself. That shall be releasing of energy and allowing you to be more flexible.

FRANK: Does this concern the baseball games that I play?

ELIAS: Yes, that and your business, which we have discussed many times that they are quite interconnected.

FRANK: Yes, it’s too bad we didn’t have time to talk about that, because there’s lots going on there, too. (Elias laughs)

Now the last thing, the very last thing I want to ask you about is this, and this is just a question that may be for discussion for next time.

ELIAS: Very well.

FRANK: As you’ve told us all, perception is the key, adjusting perception and that sort of thing. I don’t know why, but it just came to me somewhere since we last talked that you perhaps had some reason for being intentionally vague about that whole thing. Is that true or is that...? (Elias chuckles) Have you been intentionally being vague with us, Mr. Elias?

ELIAS: Concerning perception?


ELIAS: I am INTENTIONALLY expressing, always! (Laughs) Therefore, if I am expressing in a vague manner... (Video tape ends)

Recording ends after 1 hour, 5 minutes.

©2007 Mary Ennis, All Rights Reserved

Copyright 2004 Mary Ennis, All Rights Reserved.