Session 202004191

“Reopening After COVID-19: It Is Safe Now”
“Intermediates and Conflict: The Desire to Build Bridges”
“Redefining Conflict: Being Creative and Honoring the Individual”

Session 20200419

“Reopening After COVID-19: It Is Safe Now”
“Intermediates and Conflict: The Desire to Build Bridges”
“Redefining Conflict: Being Creative and Honoring the Individual”

Sunday, April 19, 2020 (Private/Phone)

Participants: Mary (Michael) and Marcos (Marta)

“It isn’t about reconciliation; it’s about cooperation….It is a matter of shifting your perspective from thinking and analyzing into intuitive. Therefore, in that, …looking at the situation from a different perspective rather than looking at conflict as fighting, which is exhausting, but rather looking at conflict as being the beginning motivation of change, and that you are moving in a direction of discovering what empowers each individual.”

ELIAS: Good morning!

MARCOS: Good morning, Elias.

ELIAS: (Chuckles) And what shall we discuss, my friend?

MARCOS: (Sighs) Wow. Where should we start? Let’s see. Like the good analyst that I think I sometimes am in the financial sense, maybe a top-dollar approach, begin by looking at the bigger picture and bringing it down to me, which is… I mean, I hate the reflection, right? I’m reflecting what’s going on inside, but it kind of makes sense for me to do it the other way around first, if that’s okay.

ELIAS: I understand.

MARCOS: So, kind of continuing from our last conversation on the bigger picture, which I think I get and I have become much more comfortable with this great leveler, which has been this virus, but it’s of course multilayered and you can look at it from so many angles. One of the things that I’d like to have your opinion on is this moment that we are in as far as when do we restart and when is it safe to do so from the health providers’ point of view. And there’s a big clash right now going on, as you know, between the health officials saying No, no, no, we have to wait two weeks, a month, whatever it takes, to the pressure that’s been building up of Hey, we need to go back to work. A lot of people want to, but a lot of people need to. And that comes from the work that I’ve been doing and what I see in small businesses, in very small businesses that have been hit very, very hard, no? So, there’s this dichotomy, and that presents a lot of issues, but that’s been taking up a lot of my time, my thinking, my nights, from a broad perspective, but ultimately what does that mean for me? You know, how do I feel about it? What am I reflecting and projecting? And I need to bring it to a very centered and present moment. And I know there’s a lot there, but perhaps you can start there.

ELIAS: And what would you say in relation to yourself? What is your position, let us say, in relation to all of that?

MARCOS: Well, I guess I would say that I’m biased, in a sense, that I know some things that a lot of people don’t, in the sense of we’re going to be fine, the virus is not going to kill you unless you believe it is, but it’s really the… I feel the interconnectedness in a big way, in a very big way, and I feel very strongly and I feel tremendously for those people that are having a very difficult time – not just from being sick, but for those people that are healthy and that have been told, “You cannot go to work. You have to stay home.”

And so, since our last conversation I have thought a lot about what you suggested, not pushing and not rebelling, because I have a natural tendency to do that, and now I’m catching myself very quickly. I rebel at some of the things I read or hear, and I very easily sometimes get caught up in these small businesses that I’m doing a lot of work for that have not received this government assistance, whereas a lot of much larger businesses – and those have not behaved properly, if you will, have received money, etc. etc. So, I have to quickly bring myself back to the center and see what this means for each one, but what does it mean for myself? And that’s where I kind of struggle a little bit, and I’d like to find some clarity after this call perhaps, to understand the “each create their reality.” But the interconnectedness, compassion, and sometimes even more, also throws me a little bit off balance.

To answer your question very pointedly, I would reopen.

ELIAS: I would definitely suggest in that direction also, the reason being the beginning of your question, “When is it safe?” It is safe now.


ELIAS: And in that, it is a matter of encouraging that and expressing that in relation to other individuals, expressing in the direction that it IS safe, that what they are doing at this point is not avoiding the virus. Therefore, in that, what I would say is, regardless of how careful an individual has been, they aren’t avoiding the virus; they will either activate it or they won’t. Therefore, in terms of what most people believe in relation to contagion and catching the virus, they will either catch it or they won’t, because as I expressed previously, almost all of you have already been exposed. In relation to what you think of as a contagion, there are very few people in your world that haven’t been exposed. That doesn’t mean that everyone will activate it, but that is the point, that the longer that people isolate, that isn’t actually preventing them from engaging this virus or not. Therefore, is it safe? It already is safe.

And in that, all of these precautions that people are engaging—isolating themselves, not interacting, engaging physical distance and incorporating masks and gloves—none of it, NONE OF IT, is actually preventing any of them from, in your terminology, contracting the virus. But the point is, is that it isn’t about the virus.

Now, I recognize that most of the people don’t recognize that yet, but in relation to what they do see and that their concentration is ON the virus itself, I would say that at this point you have engaged plenty of time to be physically distancing yourselves from this contagion, and if you haven’t distanced yourself from it by now, you won’t.

MARCOS: Right.

ELIAS: Therefore, simply put, regardless of what people do, at this point you are either going to activate it or you aren’t. And in that, nothing that you do will generate any bit of difference, literally. Therefore, I would say that yes, I agree with you, that it is time to move on and begin to implement these new directions of self-structuring and self-directing, and to begin to implement the movement in the direction of differences and addressing to that and eventually moving into acceptance.

MARCOS: Yeah. That’s my sense, absolutely. And I guess where I question not so much the what but the how, in a way, is because of the fear, the tremendous fear that still exists and holds people to follow all of the instructions, and not in a way that I would be telling people what to do, and certainly not going against anything or anyone. And that’s where I am right now, but how do I do this, where…? So, I’ve started a little bit with these daily calls with different actors in the small business community and talking about the relief that is supposed to come from the federal government, which of course did come and was finished and it never reached 99% of them. But in… I don’t want to use the word convincing; I don’t want to convince them, but in just showing them, or at least speaking my voice in a very open way and saying it is time to put pressure on some of the local representatives, because this is literally what I’ve said, Elias. There are two things: One, we have to assist and help each other in the best way that we can; I think we want to be very conscious of all of the rules and regulations in place. But I also think it’s time to raise our voice to the representatives in an intelligent way, where we say this is not working for us and we’ll either die because of the virus or die because of starvation, because we don’t have work and we don’t have savings and we don’t have… you know? I mean, that’s kind of dramatic.


MARCOS: But I think it’s come to that. And I have said that to a small group, and then they’ve come back to me and said Well, help us to organize some other actors and kind of have a bigger voice, and can you do that? And I said absolutely, I’ll be a part of it, I’ll be very happy to. So, I kind of relish that part, but I want to be able to do that in a way where I’m not creating conflict but I am expressing myself and then we’ll see where we go.

ELIAS: Now, what I would say to you, my friend, is in a realistic capacity there may be some conflict. That may be unavoidable, because there already IS conflict. There has been conflict from the beginning of all of this; therefore, to avoid all conflict may be unrealistic. And as I expressed many, many, many, many years ago, in your terms, to all of you that were present at the time, ideally you may want to move in the direction of a no-conflict scenario, but there may be times in which that may not necessarily be realistic. And in that, it is a matter of moving in the direction of the LEAST conflict scenario.

And in that, yes, you want to generate the LEAST amount of conflict but recognizing that what you are working with, the foundation of it already was expressing conflict.

MARCOS: Right.

ELIAS: This mass event is BASED in conflict. But in that also, it is a recognition that sometimes in relation to you as people, your species, sometimes conflict is necessary to motivate you, because without it sometimes you become complacent, and that was the basis for what ensued with this mass event.

But in this also, it is a matter of recognizing that you aren’t elite and you aren’t separate from the rest of the world. You are all humans, and in that, it is a matter of your present country beginning to recognize that you aren’t elite, that you are interconnected and that you aren’t set apart from the rest of the world, and if the rest of the world can move in a direction of moving to the next step, so can you.

MARCOS: That’s very well said. I think we’re beginning to see some things, particularly with the younger people, with the younger generations who are much more aware I think in many ways, the artistic people. That is very clear and very evident to me. And I appreciate your answer, because “no conflict” is unrealistic.

And I think I believe perhaps that there is a way where there’s a collective voice of reason from people that are well known and respected in the community that have typically been more activists but now I think are starting to see a slightly different point of view or maybe are shifting more toward the middle, because they have been fighting and fighting – and they do use that word: “We’ve been fighting for everything all our lives. Our community has had to fight for this and fight for that.” And I tell them it’s not about the fight; it’s about how do we look at this where we can show people, show others that what we want is very doable and that it’s necessary and blah blah blah and so on and so forth but without the fight.

And it’s going to take a little while, because I think it doesn’t quite make sense to them right away, but in a way I think it does, because they keep coming back and they keep bringing it up. So, I think there’s something there, but that’s… and I sometimes struggle with that. And you know when you said “no conflict,” sometimes I feel like maybe it’s the intermediate part of me, maybe it’s a part of me that does not appreciate conflict, but I just sometimes think Well, just turn around and go do something else, go somewhere else. But I don’t find myself doing that; I find myself right in the middle of something. So, okay, well, here I am, so let’s do it.

ELIAS: Of course, you do! Because what do you do? You move in the direction of bridges.


ELIAS: Therefore, of course you find yourself right in the middle.


ELIAS: Because that is where the bridge is necessary. And in that, my friend, I would say that I understand why you want to move in a direction of no conflict. I would also say to you, my friend, you are correct that there is a significant piece of this that does have to do with your orientation; that I would say most individuals that incorporate an intermediate orientation, they THINK in terms of no conflict or that they don’t want conflict. That is the manner in which they naturally THINK, and that is the direction that they THINK that they move in, because that is important to them that there is peace, that there is calm, that there is no conflict.

BUT (chuckles) very much in similarity to what you have expressed, most intermediate individuals find themselves many times directly in the MIDDLE of conflict, either in a capacity that they have created it themselves, or that they are drawn in relation to other individuals that they interact with, or that they are drawn into conflict because of their passions.


ELIAS: Because most intermediate individuals are very passionate people. They are passionate in relation to what is important to each of them. Therefore, whatever is important to YOU, or whatever is important to ANOTHER individual—not necessarily what is important in general, but that each of you expresses your own importance.

MARCOS: Yes, I get it. Yes. I was just thinking about Bernie, because when I see an example outside of me it’s so clear. And sometimes it’s not so clear when I see it in myself, but thinking… We’ve talked about this, where we both want to stay away from conflict, and so we talk about this idyllic scene where we ride off into the sunset and you live happily ever after. And yet here, for example, she is in the middle of something, in guess where? A hospital, where a lot of this stuff is going on. Even though she’s in the place where babies are born, it’s still a part of it and she is part of the health system, and she’s right up to her eyeballs in the situation too. And she’s of course intermediate, so it’s interesting how we think and then what we do—two different things.

ELIAS: I agree. And in that, it isn’t that you think about it, that you think to yourself that you intentionally place yourselves in the middle of conflict, but you do do it, and you do it automatically, but that definitely has to do with your passion. And it may not be that you do it in relation to some political agenda; it may be in a personal capacity, that an individual does it in their job and they present themselves with conflict in relation to other people at their job, or they present conflict in their relationships, or they present conflict in some idealistic capacity. It doesn’t matter what the subject is; the subject is very individual and specific to the individual. But it is fascinating that I would say almost every intermediate individual that you would be engaging a conversation with or asking them about conflict, they would automatically express that they want to avoid conflict at all costs, and that that is a high priority for them, when in actuality (chuckles), they engage it actually somewhat frequently.

MARCOS: So, two things come to mind. One, the fact that that creates some conflict within each one of us, I think, you know, and I feel it at night because of the other… I just realized something, too, that I have been saying for the last three weeks and working very, very exhaustively at this, where I am literally exhausted at the end of the day, helping these small businesses, helping these owners of small shops and whatnot, where ultimately I’m not doing it for them—I’m doing it for myself. I just didn’t realize that until now. And I had probably been taking personal responsibility for them, which has caused a great expenditure of energy on my part and more conflict. And yet, you know, I’m not doing it for them; I’m doing it for me.

ELIAS: I agree. But what I would say to you, my friend, is especially for you as an intermediate, I would say that it would be tremendously beneficial for you to be redefining conflict itself, and in that, recognizing that what you engage in conflict you engage because it is something that is very contrary to your peaceful existence, let us say. And that is the reason that it is so passionate and that it is so important to you, and that is the reason that you so automatically and willingly engage conflict, because it is almost always about what disrupts or threatens your peaceful existence, or what disrupts or threatens your ability to flow and to naturally be you and express you.

And in that, I would also say that for many intermediate individuals – and this is a piece that many individuals don’t recognize about intermediate individuals – there is a piece of most of you that moves in a direction of highly valuing the importance of the individual—not only yourself, but EVERY individual—and in that, valuing the individual in the capacity of their unique importance and that nothing should take away from that or squash that. Therefore, regardless of how the individual does it—how the intermediate individual does it— most of you have a sense of championing the importance of every individual.

MARCOS: Doesn’t that inherently create some issues for us, though, automatically almost, where—

ELIAS: Yes. Because I would say that yes, in that, that creates also a conflict many times in which the value of the self, regardless of what the individual’s perception is of themself, regardless of whether they have incorporated considerable experiences that have influenced them to express a discounting of themself or a devaluing of themself, there is still an intrinsic piece that fights to BE ultimately valued. And therefore, in that, that at times then also creates conflict for that individual, because they may be incorporating that expression in which they do value the importance and the significance of every individual but they also want their importance to be recognized first. (Chuckles) Which is natural, but sometimes—actually many times—that can create additional conflict for this intermediate individual, because then they may be at odds between what they want and what is to their greatest benefit and what they perceive someone else wants or what is to their benefit, and they may not be able to reconcile the two together.

MARCOS: Yeah. And when you don’t reconcile the two, or you can’t, what do you do?

ELIAS: That is the point, my friend. And that is part of the challenge of this mass event in relation to differences, is that you are correct that there are many times in which you can’t reconcile; and in that, that isn’t the point. It isn’t about reconciliation—it is about cooperation.

MARCOS: Right.

ELIAS: And always cooperate with other individuals, and you don’t have to compromise and you don’t have to reconcile and you don’t even have to understand. (Pause)

MARCOS: Yes. I’m thinking in terms of what I’ve been expressing to you today and what I’ve been doing over the last month or so and where that’s leading me. And there is an important piece of that which is a great satisfaction, while at the same time trying to find this fine line of not fighting, not taking personal responsibility but also following your intent and what you want to do—until you don’t, right? And then you always have a choice to do something else.

ELIAS: Correct.

MARCOS: But this is much bigger. So, I think that the last part of what I said, I’m not really believing (chuckles) that we do something else. Because you know, sometimes I do feel this is just too difficult, I’m not going to make a difference, etc., but at the same time then I attract or create some people or some situations where I’m being sort of called upon, and I just think in me, you kind of rise up to that challenge in trying to make a difference, in cooperating. Because that’s how I have seen myself with these different groups that are so disparate and so different, in trying to find the cooperation point where it’s a win for everybody.

ELIAS: I understand.

MARCOS: Yeah. It’s… It ain’t easy, as they say. (Laughs)

ELIAS: Correct, and that is what leads you as an intermediate in the direction of conflict. And this is the reason that I am expressing perhaps it would be a significant benefit to redefine conflict, rather than how you see it – or how you have seen it, throughout your life – to actually be looking at conflict instead of from a negative perspective as being, in a manner of speaking, your opportunity to use it in a capacity to create cooperation, in which you are using that conflict as a tool or as a start point, because it is motivating.


ELIAS: And in that, it is a matter of looking at conflict. What is it? It is an expression of dissatisfaction. It can be an expression of disagreement, but even in the disagreement there is an element of dissatisfaction, which is what creates the conflict. Each individual, each side, is dissatisfied and wants something that isn’t being expressed.

Now, in that, if you are actually looking at it from that perspective, then you can actually move in the direction of that being the catalyst or the motivation or the opportunity to move in a new direction of cooperation.

MARCOS: Right. No, I love this piece of redefined conflict. That would never have occurred to me, and this is extraordinary because I think that is something that can defuse what’s been going on inside of me and at the same time make it a useful tool, as you say, which I think is very real. Because I think that people are also, from the people that I talk to and that I engage with daily—now virtually over a computer, but it’s daily—that they’re tired of this ongoing conflict of divide and difference that has existed for so long. And it’s not just here; it’s nationwide, and so you’re starting to see more and more of that unrest, because people are very dissatisfied with the way things have been done, and I think it’s an opportunity to begin anew. And it’s interesting, because I think that it’s – as somebody who believes that the world is your oyster and somewhat of a globalist, I would say, it really is about the individual and then the community and where this begins to grow outward rather than bringing it out within. It’s, again, what you’ve talked about for 25 years. It starts within and then it is played out.

ELIAS: Yes. Yes.


ELIAS: And in that, if you are thinking about situations in those terms, how would you implement differently?

MARCOS: Well, I have to think about it a little bit, but I think because my automatic reaction is to right a wrong, to help somebody, the downtrodden—you know, we’ve talked about before the knight in shining armor. And that’s my automatic reaction, but I catch myself now time and time and time again, and looking at their strengths, at everybody’s strengths, and saying we can… Well, I’ve just started recently, to answer your question I guess more clearly, to bring together a few people to brand us one message that does not take anything away from anybody else but that does raise a voice, raise a hand, and then to broaden that circle, that inner circle, to begin to create some influence where people will notice—you know, people in government or people in finance—and say Hey, we’re a part of this too, so let’s work on something that can be beneficial for both sides. That’s what comes to mind right now, and that’s what I think I’ve started to do, even though I’ve not probably thought it through more clearly.

ELIAS: I understand. And in that, this is a piece also. Whether it be about other humans or a situation or creatures or whatever the subject happens to be, this is a piece also. Which (chuckles) is, in relation to that commonality with the intermediate individuals, that yes, you are trying to right a wrong. And that is part of the redefining. It isn’t that there necessarily is a wrong, but that YOU perceive that there is.

MARCOS: Right.

ELIAS: That you perceive that someone is being downtrodden, that you perceive that someone or something is being devalued. (Pause) Or, in some capacity being abused or misused.

MARCOS: Yes. (Pause)

ELIAS: In this also, what I would say to you – and this piece is not necessarily about your orientation but more in association with part of what many individuals are addressing to presently, which is engaging your guidelines and remembering what they are for, that your guidelines are specifically that: they are in place to guide you, to guide what about you? To guide your behavior. Not what other people should or shouldn’t do, not what you do to yourself, but that it guides your behavior in relation to what? What is your behavior in relation to? OTHER PEOPLE’S situations and things. Therefore, in that, recognizing that you are responding to differences in relation to your guidelines, therefore recognizing “I wouldn’t do this,” and this is actually an expression that most of you actually say—and I am not speaking about orientations at this point.

MARCOS: Right. Right.

ELIAS: But that as people, this is what you say: “I wouldn’t do that. I don’t understand that behavior. I don’t understand why that individual would do that” or “I don’t understand that behavior” or “I don’t understand that circumstance. I would never do that.” And you are correct, because you have guidelines that guide your behavior, and therefore you WOULDN’T do a particular action that you see. But then that is the point, is that that is why you have those guidelines, because they guide YOUR behavior; therefore, use them.


ELIAS: Use them to guide your behavior.

MARCOS: Well, what I think has worked for me, and I think it’s very much that for years, having been in so many meetings where conflict does come up over many situations, you know I’ve come to realize that the best thing for me is to say, “Well, I look at it a little bit differently, and this is what I would do” or something to that effect, which for the most part is well accepted.

ELIAS: Yes. Yes. And that is offering an expression of cooperation, in which you aren’t compromising, you don’t expect other people to compromise either, you are expressing yourself, and you are expressing your direction and what guides YOUR behavior. But your behavior is in relation to other people, circumstances and things—other beings, how you behave towards those other expressions in your world, in your life.

MARCOS: Yes. And I think too, that brings to my mind right now the fact that that probably would have never worked anyway, as far as “Well, I’m just going to go off and do something completely different all by myself.” But now it’s impossible—if it were ever possible—because of this situation where we’re all in this together. And I keep saying that, and I keep hearing that and people say that all the time, which is a good thing, but it’s got to be more than just words. But I do feel that now. I believe it, that we’re all in this together and we all have to come together. And that, I think, is the crux of the matter, where you have still so many different points of view and angles and differences and so much baggage sometimes that many of us carry, etc., to come to the point where we can look at this and create this world differently. But it all starts within, doesn’t it?

ELIAS: Correct.

MARCOS: So, what would you… We only have a few more minutes, but what would you say to me? What am I not seeing, or what am I not doing that can one, help me to not get so deeply involved and so exhausted at the end and at the same time fulfill me—

ELIAS: What I would say first of all is it isn’t about not becoming deeply involved, but it is about not fighting. It is about giving up the fight and moving in a different direction, moving in a creative direction, being creative rather than fighting.

MARCOS: Yeah, I like that.

ELIAS: And it is a matter of shifting your perspective from thinking and analyzing into intuitive.


ELIAS: What is the intuitive answer? Because that is what intuition does—it answers questions.

MARCOS: Right.

ELIAS: Therefore, in that, rather than continuing to move in the intellectual and the thinking and the analyzing, moving in the direction of stopping the fight and shifting your attention to the intuitive, to looking at the situation from a different perspective rather than looking at conflict as fighting, which is exhausting, --


ELIAS: --but rather looking at conflict as being the beginning motivation of change, and that you are moving in a direction of discovering what empowers each individual. Not assuming, not expressing what YOU perceive empowers each individual but engaging them, and in engaging them discovering from them what empowers each of them and then intuitively moving in a direction to creatively engage those directions that will create that empowerment.

[The timer for the end of the session rings]

ELIAS: And THAT is the cooperation aspect, in which you engage together, discovering what is that expression that will empower each individual.

MARCOS: Yes. And very quickly, what comes to mind is be the straight little sapling.

ELIAS: Most definitely.

MARCOS: Yeah. Because that will show rather than convince or tell or say, just do it. Yeah, I think… Wow, a lot of really good—

ELIAS: And pay attention to your guidelines.

MARCOS: Yeah. Yeah.

ELIAS: [Pay attention] to those guidelines, and use them. DO. Don’t expect others to do and follow those guidelines—YOU follow them and express them. Implement that. Use them in guiding your behavior.

MARCOS: Yes. Absolutely. Very good. This is really, really helpful, Elias. Thank you so much.

ELIAS: You are very, very welcome. I express tremendous encouragement to you, my friend, that I would say that what you have posed are excellent questions. And in that, it has moved you in a direction to use this expanded awareness that you have in manners that are of benefit to you and to others.

MARCOS: Thank you.

ELIAS: I express, Thank YOU. (Both chuckle)

In tremendous love to you, my dear friend, and in great encouragement and support, I know that you can do this because [inaudible]. This building bridges is a foundational piece of being in that position of cooperation.

MARCOS: Mm. Yeah.

ELIAS: And in that, I incorporate no doubt that you will be successful.

MARCOS: Thank you.

ELIAS: I shall greatly be anticipating our next meeting, my dear friend. Surge onward! (Both laugh)

MARCOS: I will do that.

ELIAS: And express no fear, and encouragement that it is safe.

MARCOS: Yes. I am convinced of that.

ELIAS: In dear friendship to you, as always, au revoir.

MARCOS: Au revoir.

(Elias departs after 1 hour 3 minutes)