Session 202006061

“Where Is Jeffrey Epstein?”
“Mass Energy Exhaustion”
“Accepting a Past Self”
“An Avenue for Revolutionary Change”
“The Power of the Individual: You Don’t Have to Be an Activist”
“Historic Perceptions of Black People”
"Using a Feeling vs. Following a Feeling"
"Ground Covers"
"Coronavirus Statistics"

Session 20200606

“Where Is Jeffrey Epstein?”
“Mass Energy Exhaustion”
“Accepting a Past Self”
“An Avenue for Revolutionary Change”
“The Power of the Individual: You Don’t Have to Be an Activist”
“Historic Perceptions of Black People”
"Using a Feeling vs. Following a Feeling"
"Ground Covers"
"Coronavirus Statistics"

Saturday, June 6, 2020 (Private/Phone)

Participants: Mary (Michael) and Ann (Vivette)

ELIAS: Good morning!

ANN: Well, good morning, good morning, good morning!

ELIAS: (Laughs) And how are you proceeding?

ANN: Aaaaaah… (Both laugh)

ELIAS: That isn’t tremendously encouraging.

ANN: Well, I think all things considered, I’m okay. I mean, I’m good. I just am exhausted. We’ll talk about all that, but just on a lighter note, I just want to start this session off on a lighter note and some curiosity questions that I’ve been seeing.

So, one, for whatever reason I’ve been getting into this old show that was filmed in the '50s and '60s called “What’s My Line?" and John Wayne was on there. And I’m looking at him talk, and I’m like, “Oh my god, that’s Aaron! That’s Aaron!” So, is John Wayne and Aaron the same essence? Are they…? Is John Wayne a focus of Aaron’s?

ELIAS: Counterpart.

ANN: REALLY? I could have sworn it wouldn't have been counterpart. Okay. So, then… I mean, it would have been at least observing, but… And then there's a woman on the panel. Her name is Dorothy Kilgallen, and I was thinking maybe she… Okay, a couple things I thought. I thought, “Oh! Is she me?” and I thought, “Oh! No, no. She’s like Inna.” And I thought, “Oh, oh, maybe she’s a mixture of us.”

ELIAS: And THAT you are correct.

ANN: A mixture of us?

ELIAS: Meaning, fragmented from both.

ANN: She is fragmented from me and Inna?


ANN: Oh, how interesting that is! Huh! All right. And then there’s a comedian, Dave Chappelle: Is he Tumold?

ELIAS: Belonging, yes.

ANN: I could feel my Tumold brother. Feel it! (Both laugh) All right, so those are just my little impressions. I can’t believe that Aaron is not… That’s weird.

Oh! One other kind of curiosity question – and I’m hoping you’re going to give me an answer to this. So, Jeffrey Epstein, this guy, which I don’t even know how to describe him. So, he was in jail, and then they said he committed suicide, which I am 100% sure he did not commit suicide. So, you don’t need to verify that for me—well, unless I’m wrong, you could tell me. But I’m thinking he was either murdered, which is what most people think, or, after I watched this little Netflix episode about him, I’m thinking damned if he didn’t like fake his death and somehow get escaped. People helped him escape. Is the latter true? Or the former true?

ELIAS: The latter.

ANN: Oh my god! I was right! Oh my god! That’s what I was thinking. (Elias laughs) In the middle of the frickin’ night, I woke up and I thought, “Oh my god! He…” I KNEW it! Oh my god! Okay. All righty then! All righty then, all righty then. Hm. My heart is beating a mile at a minute right now. But it just all made sense. It just all made sense that’s the way it would’ve gone down. (Elias chuckles) Oh my god, Elias! My heart is beating. I don’t know why it’s beating so fast. (Whispering) Oh my god. I just figured… We’re living in strange times, Elias—strange times.

ELIAS: I agree. (Chuckles)

ANN: Oh my god! Okay, so… Wow. Let my heart settle down a little bit. I don’t even know, Elias. I feel like crying, just as a release of energy. I have been frickin’ exhausted. I’ve been sleeping, I’ve been taking so many naps, I’ve been lying around, I’ve been doing… And I’m not beating myself up over it, either. I’m just letting myself go with it. But I’m wondering. Is it…? You know, obviously I’m going to put it down to the mass energy that is going on. Obviously, I’m aware that that is pretty tiring, but then also I could just start focusing on different things, and then I could get more energy. Can I…?

ELIAS: That is a possibility.

ANN: Or I could just ride it out and let myself be tired.

ELIAS: I would agree and express that that is another possibility.

ANN: So, is one more beneficial than the other?

ELIAS: No. They are simply different choices. And in that, I would say that at this point, that is the point with you, is recognizing them simply as that, as different choices. That one isn’t better or worse, one isn’t more beneficial or less beneficial. They are just different choices, and in that, whichever direction you choose to move in.

Which, what I would say to you is the reason that that is what you are presenting to yourself is because there are many, many times in which that IS actually the situation. Even in what I have expressed to all of you in relation to constructs or attachments, that you might discover, once you have identified certain constructs or certain attachments, that you AGREE with them or that you like them or that you want to express them, and therefore you may not choose to do something different. And this is the point, that everything isn’t a matter of something being less or more or better or worse; many expressions are simply a matter of what you prefer.

ANN: Correct. Like vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream.

ELIAS: Correct. Correct.

ANN: So, now, taking that – and I mean, that’s fine. That’s great. Either way, I feel very comfortable with it being a choice, and I kind of felt that way even before you said that. But then let me ask you this, because this is… I don’t necessarily feel that way on this situation. Also, some of my exhaustion is, more and more, my job. I’m just tired of my job. I just don’t want to do it anymore.

And a lot of it has to do with the customers and the money. You know, honestly I just don’t want to help them out sometimes. I’m like, it’s just too much. It’s just too much, and I don’t want to have to go back and forth and fight. And they want things that supposedly we don’t allow and then try to get them, and it’s just energy that I don’t want to expend.

And I think to myself—I mean, right now, honestly if John had a job that had health insurance benefits, as sad as this is to say I think I might just say all right, that’s enough, I’m going to quit. I think a couple reasons I am still working there: one, is for the health insurance; two, I kind of like the company overall. I like the people running it, I think it feels good. I like the interaction with my coworkers, and on some extent I like the interaction WITH the customers just because, you know, another life. I like anthropology and I like watching people, and it’s a good place to practice about when I do something and to see the reflection of the customers. It’s like this nice…for me being so curious, it’s a nice place.

And I’m also kind of curious why there’s still this part that drains me when I’m like, okay, think about how can we do it differently so it doesn’t drain you. Think about it from a different perception so it doesn’t drain you. And so, part of that is interesting to play around with that, but also, in this point in time when I am so exhausted, oh my god, I don’t want to do it anymore. It’s just… I feel tired. I’m just tired. I don’t even know if I want to figure out a different perspective. So, what do you think about all THAT?

ELIAS: I would say that that is all valid, and I would say that it is a matter of evaluating importances.

Let me express it to you in this manner: I have, through time but also recently, engaged conversations with individuals in relation to certain health-related questions. Now, in that, the individuals that I have engaged in relation to that subject are also currently engaging practices that they know, because of their own beliefs, that they perceive are damaging to their health—one in smoking, one in drinking, one in not exercising at all, therefore being considerably sedentary. There are many different examples, but the point is they are each asking questions about health but at the same time are continuing to engage practices that they believe are unhealthy and that are damaging to their health.

Now; what is the point of that? The point of that is that in relation to importance, although their health may be important to a degree, it isn’t important enough to alter certain habits—or certain perceptions—that they actually know are damaging to their health.

Now; the reason that I bring that up is because I answered your question in relation to preferences and importances, and in that, perhaps changing importances, because you continue to express – this is not the first time that you have expressed to myself that you are tired of this job.

ANN: (Laughs) Yep.

ELIAS: In that, I would say that this job has been exhausting you and has been bothersome to you for a considerable time framework now, and that you continue to engage it, and your reasons or your importances for continuing to engage it are the health insurance and the money. But as time goes on, you become more bothered, more exhausted, more disconnected from it and more in the direction of how much you don’t want to do it – but you keep doing it. Similar to the individual that expresses to myself they want information about what would be beneficial to their health but not to stop smoking. (Chuckles)

ANN: But—

ELIAS: You KNOW what is, or what has become, important to you. I would say that for a considerable time framework in your life your job was very important to you, and in more recent time frameworks, in more recent years, your job has become less and less important to you. But it is very familiar, AND it also holds that piece that is important to you about being responsible, being productive and being responsible, that it is important for you to be productive and to be responsible, and in order to do that, it is important that you are working. That isn’t true, but I would say that realistically there still remains somewhat of a struggle with you in relation to that, because you still have time frameworks – although I very much acknowledge you that you are in the process of changing this significantly – but you do still have time frameworks in which you aren’t entirely comfortable with not doing anything.

ANN: You are right about that, and you are also right about me changing that significantly.


ANN: AND – and believe me, I’m going to keep moving in that direction, because I like it. (Elias laughs) The other thing that I realized—just to give myself another little pat on the back—I realized something else the other day that I must be… At least I know I’m moving in a direction I want to, because I’m being able to look at my quote-unquote past self and do things. Like you know, we’ve talked about, as you are well aware, being right at one point in time was extremely important to me. Now it’s becoming less important to me. But also things like I was talking to a black coworker and in that conversation just looking at myself, my past self, and not such a long-ago past self, where I don’t know if I would have called myself a racist but I definitely did have a white viewpoint—a very white viewpoint—up until very, very recently. And now I’m like, okay, my viewpoint is changing, my perspective IS changing, and I like the way it’s changing, but I don’t even feel bad. Like in the past, if I would have done something that, in my present self I wouldn’t necessarily have liked, I would have had this little flush of shame or a flush of guilt, and now I’m being more accepting about my past self. Like, “Okay, that’s what I had. That’s what I was. That’s what I did.”

ELIAS: Congratulations! THAT is tremendous!

ANN: I thought so, too.

ELIAS: That is excellent, and that is tremendous. And when I say excellent I mean excellent, my friend. That is exceptional.

ANN: Yeah. It feels lighter. It just feels good. And then that also is kind of bringing me up to this feeling I have—one thing I do like about not having energy or being so low energy is it’s helping me serve a purpose of not being so reactive, because I don’t have the energy to be reactive right now. (Elias laughs) And I—


ANN: Aha?

ELIAS: Also tremendous, because, my friend, it also is showing you how much more energy it requires to be reactive, to be angry, to be bothered, to be destructive. It requires so much more energy to express in those directions than it does to not.

ANN: Yes. Oh, believe me, that is loud and clear. So—

ELIAS: Aha! THAT is excellent!

ANN: Yeah. Thank you! And I have felt in all my tiredness in what’s going on—and it’s just crazy what’s going on—I do feel like myself, personally, I am making some pretty huge shifts within myself. Like those two, right there, I think are pretty huge shifts.

ELIAS: I definitely agree. I definitely agree.

ANN: So, this is—

ELIAS: Because I would say – I would very, very much acknowledge you, because I would say that this is significantly important, my friend, to take the step to look at yourself AND to look at yourself realistically in the manner that you are, looking at what you term to be your present self and your past self, and not necessarily divorcing yourself from your past self, but acknowledging that and accepting it and allowing yourself to concentrate on your present self. Which is enormous, because this is the piece for most people that is so difficult, is I would say having the courage to admit something they don’t like.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: Something that they don’t necessarily want to be, but to have the courage to look at that piece of themselves and acknowledge it—not attempt to throw it away, not attempt to deny it or ignore it, but to acknowledge that and then express, “That was the automatic, and this is the intentional choice. This is what I intentionally choose what and who I want to be.” Not the automatic choice that is based in influences and constructs that I haven’t even examined – and that you don’t have to! That is also a piece. You don’t HAVE to examine all of that! All that is important is that you recognize something in yourself, you acknowledge it, and then you make choices.

ANN: You know, Bashar talks about – this has just been coming up in my mind, Elias. He talks about like the eye of needle, pass through the eye of the needle, and that might even be a Biblical reference now that I think about it, but I’m not sure, but… And like his thing is you have to pass through the eye of the needle, you have to let go of all this stuff that doesn’t go through the eye of the needle. And I keep thinking I feel like I’m doing something like that right now, in this very intense time, letting go of a lot of stuff so I can move forward—whatever move forward means (laughs)…

There is a lot going on. I am exhausted, and sometimes I feel like crying, all this emotion, but it just feels like we’re in this… It’s going to sound ironic to say, but it feels like we are in this really good time right now. And what I mean by that is we have been living – and what is truth, what is lies? – but we have been living as a whole society with all these deceptions. You in that one group session talked about the elite few who do these things or manipulate and influence and stuff, so I just in my mind I’m calling them the few versus the many, like the few people who… But the many, we know about it already. We know that this stuff happens, but for some reason we’ve like chosen to not really address to it. And now it feels like okay, it’s so in our face at this moment. And I’m happy about that. I WANT it to be in our face. I want it to be in our face and I want to address to it. We might not have to dissect it all, hopefully, but I’m like let’s do this thing.

Because to not do this thing also felt like it took so much more energy; like you say, to get reactive takes so much more energy. Or just to be living a lie—again, whatever that means—takes so much more energy than just let’s be ourselves. As a whole society, too—as a whole society. And I’m understanding more. When you first said this whole, this first – oh we’re talking about that, too, how you dubbed this the first mass event in this shift – I’m like, the first? Really, Elias? The first? (Elias laughs) But anyhow, the first time you said oh, this is we’re addressing to accepting differences, I’m like, yeah. I’m thinking there’s something else, a whole lot more. But then I’m like, oh damn, it IS true. It IS true! I see it all over now. I’m understanding within myself about addressing differences and with others, and I see it. I get it. I mean, I’m seeing it. (Elias laughs) Which is good. Which is good.

ELIAS: Congratulations! Yes, it is good.

ANN: Yeah! So, okay, so many questions in that. But I guess right now where I stopped, I want to ask about… Obviously, if you say first, that would lead me to believe there is a second or third, I don’t know HOW many more. Would you agree with that statement?


ANN: Okay. So, what ELSE are we going to address to? If this is what we are addressing to in differences, what other things are we going to address to in future mass events?

ELIAS: I would say that that also remains to be seen, but there is (chuckles) still much for you to be engaging and addressing to in relation to not only how you structure yourselves—which that is the first piece, which you are beginning to address to now, which that I would say likely will be addressed again because it will also be a matter of how you structure yourselves together, collectively.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: Remember—

ANN: Like our governments.

ELIAS: Yes. Remember that this shift is changing a lot of your reality. It is changing your methods of exchange with each other, it is changing how you express and engage your governments, it is changing how you express and engage authorities. Because the emphasis of this shift is on what? What is the most important factor of--

ANN: The individual.

ELIAS: Yes. The individual. That is the most important factor, and therefore everything revolves around that. And in your present reality, in your present structure, in your present design—which has been from the beginning—the emphasis has NEVER been on the individual. The emphasis has ALWAYS been on the collective. And in this, for that to change, it requires you engaging in actions that will PUT the emphasis on the individual.

Now, how you will creatively move in that direction and what you will do en masse and mass events to do that remains to be seen. This was a VERY creative mass event.

ANN: And actually, what I was thinking about that when this first came out, I thought it was kind of a… Even though it is causing a lot of stress, I thought it was kind of clever that…like this virus that quarantined so many people really doesn’t hurt that many. I mean, it does hurt people, but not that many, considering.

ELIAS: I would definitely agree. And—

ANN: So, I thought well that was nice of us, to give ourselves (laughs)…

ELIAS: I would say that it has very definitely given you an avenue to change many expressions.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: And change how you engage with each other—even in relation to your technology.

ANN: Yeah?

ELIAS: Remember that not long ago I was engaging all of you and addressing to your technology and expressing to you how you have this tremendous technology now that could be used in a manner to be connecting all of you so much more, and you were using it to DISconnect. And the interesting piece in another direction with this mass event is that it has encouraged you to be using your technology TO be connecting.

ANN: Oh yeah. Yep. That’s…Zoom, there is Zoom.

ELIAS: I would express that this was a very – or IS a very—creative avenue that you have engaged. I would say that it is putting you in a direction in which the reason that everything is so volatile and changing from week to week, day to day, is because you don’t know how to navigate yet.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: You don’t know HOW to structure yet. The factor of self-structuring is an unfamiliar concept, then translating that into how you structure with each other and how you incorporate reality in some form that still allows for what you are accustomed to but different—this is an unknown. It is not only or simply unfamiliar, it is unknown. And in that, this is the reason that everything is so volatile and changing from day to day, because everything is in an experimental stage. You don’t know what will be successful, what won’t be successful, how can you do this, how can you do that, what are the parameters. And it is calling on people to be imaginative, to be creative, to think differently than what you are accustomed to. Therefore, it is calling on people to be inventors.

You have tremendous technology, and you have been thrown into a situation in which it is necessary for you to be inventors, in many situations without technology. Therefore, actually, what you have done is you have created a type of scenario of your apocalypse without the apocalypse.

ANN: Yeah. Hm. Well, I personally like that. (Both laugh)

ELIAS: I would say that it is very creative and beneficial. And in that, I would express to you all, congratulations. That I have been expressing consistently that you were not moving in a direction – and you still aren’t – of creating any type of apocalyptic event, that you weren’t going to do that and that that wasn’t your choice, and you are continuing to bear that out and choosing different directions, choosing alternatives. But I would also say that in the face of the alternative, it is important for you to remember that although you aren’t creating an apocalypse, you ARE creating significant change. And in that, some of those changes are so intensely difficult to implement that there are some directions that are being chosen not necessarily apocalyptic, but definitely revolutionary.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: Not all change is easily won. And some of it, I would say, will likely be conflicting.

ANN: What, some change will be conflicting?

ELIAS: Yes. But I have been expressing from the onset that this shift incorporates trauma, and it has and it is and it will.

ANN: So, what do you think? Are we just at the beginning of it? In the—


ANN: — thick of it now? We’re just at the beginning of it? That would kind of make sense.

ELIAS: But I would say at the beginning of it but throwing yourselves into it considerably and quickly.

ANN: Yeah. I have to say I… Just within my own self, since this whole stuff has happened, inside my own self I like where I am now versus where I was right before it started.

ELIAS: Which is very recent.

ANN: Yeah! Super recent. One thing that I kind of still really get off… Maybe this will be painful, too, but just as my own personal thing – and I’m sure, you know, that there’ll be different perspectives on this – but my own personal beliefs, whether they’re true or false, are that secrets cause more damage than having everything out in the open. Like I’ve always believed if someone tried to blackmail me, having the secret is the most painful, the worst part. I would just say whatever they were going to blackmail me on, I would say okay. I would just tell the world first, get it out. It seems like when you just get it out, yeah, it’s painful right then, it’s kind of like ripping off the Band-Aid. Painful, but then it gets better. It heals. My own personal beliefs are like that. So, all these secrets that we had in our governments or…oh! When I was watching that Jeffrey Epstein thing on Netflix, it’s just to me I’m like, “Aaaargh!” I just want to throw up when I think about how these people who are ruling, and they live by one set of rules and everyone else has to live by another set of rules. I’m like I just want to expose, expose us, get it all, let’s get it all out. I want to see that so badly, Elias. Just expose everything (Elias laughs).

ELIAS: I would express I very much understand. And in that, what I would say to you, my friend, is you’ve already begun.

ANN: I know we have!

ELIAS: Because in that, you exposing to yourself is what begins that mass exposure. And you’ve already been doing that.

ANN: Oh my god, I love that. Oh, frickin’ I love that! That’s my power! Oh. I love that. That’s my power, right? That’s my power.

ELIAS: Yes. That IS your power. In that, you’ve already been doing it. When you are exposing to yourself and you are allowing yourself to look at your past self, even if your past self was yesterday—

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: You are able to muster the courage to do that and then, to move in the direction of accepting that and recognizing, “I may not agree with that, I may not like that, but I’m also not going to judge it and I’m also not going to be bothered by it.”

ANN: Okay. There you go. That is the frickin’ key, right there. Oh, for me, for… Something just clicked.

ELIAS: (Inaudible) “…because I know today am making different choices.”

ANN: Oh my god. That was good. Something just really clicked into place there. Oh my god. I love it. And then also, giving myself examples and just thinking about it and just realizing also how you…You know you’ve said this --“from the onset of this forum”—you have said how powerful one person is. And so, I was talking to this black woman at work who… We had a very lovely conversation, but she said to me – and she is so poised and so full of grace – and she said to me when all this happened…So, our work has this foundation, and since we’re a builder we usually use it for, you know, low income housing and to help the housing market somehow. She said she asked the person that runs the foundation in our company, she says, “Are we going to do anything for the black community?” And this person did not ever get back to her. It was an email. Never responded, never responded.

Then at our company Zoom meeting, the CEO of the company says we’re going to refocus our foundation and relook into putting money to help the minorities or black communities or… And then after the Zoom call I talked to her on the phone, and when she told me that she had planted that seed—and she had planted that seed very gently, just by asking one question—I said to her, “That’s an example of how powerful we ARE as individuals! You asked one question, and from that one question this person had talked to that person and then here, so now we’re going to redirect our foundation money, from you asking one question." And that was example, example, example of how strong one person is, just by—

ELIAS: Congratulations! That was what I was expressing to all of you when we were discussing about climate change and you were all asking what can you do as one person, as one individual. That is an excellently perfect example of all of it. Because in that, as I expressed previously in that discussion about climate change, you could be one person that is a friend of someone that owns a construction company, and you might express one idea or one comment to that person, and that person may in turn move in an entirely different direction than they were previously. And therefore, you don’t have to be the person that is building; you don’t have to be the person that is pouring the mortar for the bricks. You don’t have to be an activist, but it is significant that you are aware and that you are using your opportunity just as this woman simply asking a question and by putting forth the idea and the subject of something specific.

ANN: And the other thing that I noticed, I could just tell in her manner, it wasn’t… The other important element to that, I think, is to, like you say, share. You can’t instruct. And she does it without blame. You can’t blame and you can’t be TELLING somebody what they should do, because that shuts off the other person.

ELIAS: Correct.

ANN: That closes the loop. You need to just share and really neutral, and you can tell in yourself if you’re neutral or not. You can tell. This blaming is so fucking counterproductive, Elias. And I’m like, why can we not see this? I mean, maybe myself, but obviously I’m getting worked up right now so maybe I have some to work on that, but (Elias laughs) the blaming shuts it off! It shuts it off. I’m tired of the blaming, Elias.

ELIAS: I agree. I agree.

ANN: So tired.

ELIAS: What I would say to you, my friend, in how "worked up" you are, in your terms (laughs)—

ANN: Mm-hm.

ELIAS: What I would say to you is, think about this woman and think about what you said that you admired about this individual. You didn’t say you admire it, but I know you do—

ANN: That’s true.

ELIAS: — is that, how did you describe her?

ANN: Poised. Grace.

ELIAS: Precisely.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: Precisely. Now, think about that.

ANN: Yeah. Yeah!

ELIAS: [Inaudible] think about poise and grace.

ANN: Yes!

ELIAS: And that is your key.

ANN: Yes.

ELIAS: Not yelling and screaming, not becoming more and more and more intense and matching energy, but being poised and expressing in grace.

ANN: Yes.

ELIAS: And in doing that, mountains are moved.

ANN: Yes! Which, can I tell you something? And I’ve told her this and I’ve told other people this too. Obviously, nothing is absolute and is never found throughout, but there seems to be a high percentage of black women in my observation that possess this poise and grace, kind of like Michelle Obama. I have this thinking that they—like we’ve talked about it before, you know, women have been in a minority, blacks have been in a minority, so if you are a black woman, you’ve kind of been on the bottom rung and you’ve been stepped on a lot. And wow. And out of that, instead of getting resentful, this really strong, quiet grace I have observed actually brings me to tears. It seems more evident in them than in white women, although obviously white women have it and black women don’t have it, but there is something in the culture of black women that is very beautiful and elegant and graceful and poised--and STRONG. There’s a strength there. I think there’s this strength that I’m picking up on. And it could be from years of being stepped on they got stronger.

ELIAS: I would say, I would [inaudible], this is an excellent example of you have been taught for generations and [inaudible] them.

ANN: What WE’VE been taught? Or what THEY’VE been taught?

ELIAS: I know. Just hear what I am saying.

ANN: Well, you’re breaking up.

ELIAS: This is what they have been taught for generations and generations and generations. And who taught them?

ANN: The white people?

ELIAS: Yes. But you didn’t teach yourselves.

ANN: (Laughs) Oh my god. Please clarify.

ELIAS: You taught them to carry themselves with poise and grace, but you didn’t heed your own teachings.

ANN: Wow. Wow. And actually, right now in the media you see a lot of white women doing some pretty nasty things that aren’t very graceful and poised. Oh my god, Elias! Oh my god. (Elias laughs) I don’t quite understand. You’ve got to tell me more, tell me more about this. Tell me more!

ELIAS: (Laughs) What I would say to you, my friend, is this is actually information that you yourself can access historically, that it is a matter of becoming more informed. That is important, as individuals in relation to YOUR race, it is important that you are becoming more informed about yourselves, about your race, about THEIR race and about the interaction, because let me express to you: It is moving in a direction in which there likely will be more individuals jumping onto this bandwagon, so to speak, in relation to other races that have been oppressed, but actually, this is a very specific fight. This is a very specific conflict between black and white that has never been resolved, that has been moving and churning and boiling for HUNDREDS of years—hundreds of years.

ANN: Well, since all this has started, you know there’s come a lot of things. Like I’m learning recently about, you know, the bodyguard that was planted by the FBI for Martin Luther King and how the FBI was trying to do the dissent. I wasn’t really necessarily aware of that, and wanting fear. And then even when Abraham Lincoln gave all the slaves land and a mule so they could try to create a life, and then when he was assassinated, Andrew Jackson took that all away. And yes, there are histories of us stepping on them and stepping on them. And when I was talking to my friend about this—

ELIAS: Stop.

ANN: What?

ELIAS: But let me stop you momentarily. And that is all very valid and good information that you are giving yourself, but I would say to you, it is important for you to move back in history even farther, and in doing so to understand what the differences were born of—why.

ANN: Are we talking the inception of slavery? That far back? Or further than that? I mean, in our country?

ELIAS: Yes. Yes. Yes. Because I would say to you that although black individuals have been interspersed in European history for thousands of years, there is a difference. Let me express to you, most of the interaction that Europeans had – and that includes the Romans and the Greeks – most of the interactions that they have had with peoples of black color were with people in northern Africa, in the part of Africa that you perceive now as the Middle East.

Now; this is very different from the rest of the continent, because in the northern parts of Africa, in the areas of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, these are places that historically also incorporated considerable civilization. They have the pyramids. And in that, they had considerable—in their times—advanced civilizations and large civilizations. Therefore, in relation to them, they also incorporated significant riches.

[The timer for the end of the first half of the session rings]

ELIAS: And in having those riches, they were perceived very differently than the people—which were not considered people—in central and south Africa. European people had never encountered these peoples of central and southern Africa. European peoples had explored, had moved in different areas of the world, but wherever they went—in the Orient and even in the New World, what you term it to be—the people that they encountered, even if they looked different, even if they classified them differently, their color of their skin was not so different.

When they encountered people in central and southern Africa, they encountered them after they had already encountered many different species of animals such as chimpanzees and gorillas.

ANN: Noooo….

ELIAS: When they encountered the villagers, the primitives, central and southern Africa, the European individuals, the European explorers genuinely believed them to be not human.

ANN: Oh my god, Elias.

ELIAS: Therefore, they were trapped and rounded up with nets in very similar manners that they would have been rounding up animals and trapping animals. They rounded them up, they trapped them. They transported them in the same manner that they would animals, in chains and in tremendously confined spaces. Look at what you do with livestock even to this day.

ANN: I know.

ELIAS: And black people were perceived as livestock. Therefore, they were treated as livestock, they were branded as livestock, they were fed as livestock, they were BRED as livestock, and sold and bought as livestock. And you buy and sell livestock even to this day in auctions.

ANN: Okay. So, Elias, the bell has rung so I think we have to give Mary a break, but when we come back, because we’re coming back, I’m going to want to talk about… This just brings up, you know, like you say, there’s no right and wrong. Obviously, that feels so fucking wrong to me, but I just want to… We’ll talk more in a bit, okay?

ELIAS: (Laughs) Very well.

ANN: Okay.

ELIAS: And I shall engage you shortly.

ANN: Okay. Bye.

(Break occurs after 1 hour 2 minutes)

ELIAS: Continuing.

Now, we were discussing the beginning. Now, if you think in those terms, or if you allow yourself to begin thinking in those terms, then it is a matter of tracing the evolution. Now, in that, you move from groups of people that are now in possession of these masses of black people, but they don’t perceive them as being people. They perceive them as being livestock. And this is the reason that they can own them, because they are livestock. They are animals. And to this day, once again, even with pets what do most people define themselves as, if they have pets?

ANN: A pet owner.

ELIAS: Correct. That they OWN that animal. And many of them buy them. Now, in that, I would say that this a very longstanding perception.

Now; before you advanced to your country’s civil war, England and France and what you identify now as The Netherlands, the peoples in those countries – not Spain – but the peoples in those countries had begun moving in a direction in which they began to question the idea of “Are these people, or ARE these animals?” They concluded that these are people. They incorporate a very different appearance, but they are people.

Now; that sparked in your country, in the Americas, the people in certain areas of your country, the northern areas of your country, to begin questioning also. That sparked the movement of the abolitionists, in which they believed also, “These are people. They are not animals, they are not livestock, and therefore if they are people, then they deserve to be treated as people.” That started that movement, but in that, the white people that engaged in that abolitionist movement moved in two camps, one in which some of them that were public figures would feel safer in expressing their beliefs and their direction of attempting to champion the idea with the abolitionists of black individuals being human. And in that, other people were agreeing but didn’t have the status and therefore were afraid and were aiding in secret, much like many people in your second world war that chose to be aiding the Jews, but in secret.

Now, in that, eventually that was won as the adopted perception en masse. Which, this is what I was expressing very, very briefly in the acknowledgment to the two individuals that were instrumental in your history in relation to the black community in your country, one being your former president who was assassinated and one being your more recent reverend who was the spokesperson and also assassinated.

Now; in that, when the civil war was won and ended, the prevailing perception was to accept that black individuals were human, that they were people and that they incorporated civil rights, to a degree – to a degree – because they were being accepted as being human.

Now; let me express to you that even in the northern areas of your country, although they expressed that black individuals were human, they also expressed that they were a lower form of human. They were not as evolved as the white individual. That perception has prevailed to your present day, that black individuals, although they may be human, they are a subdivision of human. They are a lower form, a less-evolved.

ANN: Now would you say that impression is… I know it’s still here today, but wouldn’t you say less and less white people are holding that opinion?

ELIAS: I would say that presently, I would say that within the past (pause) twenty to thirty years. This is a very short time framework, my friend—very, very short. In the past twenty to thirty years, the perception has been changing considerably. And with the movement in changing perception in relation to women and what you identify as homosexuals, with that movement that has also aided in changing the perception of black individuals, or black people as a whole.

BUT there still prevails a general perception—and this perception has not changed tremendously—that although your collective perception has changed to a degree to accept that black individuals are not necessarily a less-evolved human, you still maintain that they are less educated, less civilized, less assimilated into accepted society, and therefore dangerous.

And let me express to you that I would say the majority of white individuals in your particular country, if they were alone individually in the midst of a black community, they would not feel safe. I would say very realistically, a white individual – not even in a black community – a white individual at night, alone, encountering more than one black would be afraid.

ANN: Well, black people hearing you say this are probably going to go, “Amen!” Finally, what they’ve been saying forever has been heard. And—

ELIAS: Because it is actual. Because it is [inaudible]. If you were a white individual at night, alone, walking and you encountered two or more white individuals, unless they generated a threatening stance or action or verbalized something threatening, you wouldn’t necessarily automatically be afraid.

ANN: And what white people would respond to that is they’re afraid not because they’re black but because traditionally black communities, especially not black communities but low-income communities, there is a reputation, whether true or false, that the… you know, there’re gangs and they'll… Although there are white gangs right now, there seem to be more black gangs that people kill each other, so they are therefore seen as more dangerous, but it’s not because they are black. But I hear you. It probably IS because they are black.

ELIAS: It is precisely because they are black.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: AND those ideas or those expressions that you express as statistics, they are expressed because they are black. And in that, I would also express to you that (chuckles) many of your statistics are instigated, created, contrived by the white community. There are more black individuals in prisons than white, but that is because more black individuals are arrested than white.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: Not necessarily because they are more actively dishonest or criminal, but because they are targeted.

ANN: Yes.

ELIAS: Therefore, of course, that is a true statistic, but how is it measured? And WHY are there more black individuals in prisons? Or that black individuals are traditionally or notoriously of lower income. Why? That also is in many areas a true statistic. But WHY is that a true statistic? Is it because they are lazy?


ELIAS: Is it because they can’t function? No. Is it because they are not encouraged? Yes. Is it because they are oppressed and are expressed in a position to not move out of and to know their place?


ELIAS: Now, this is what I was expressing in our computer group interaction. For hundreds of years you have established a dynamic between black and white of perpetrator and victim, and that has been expressed to such a tremendous degree that it is passed from generation to generation to generation. The white generations pass—not even verbally. It is expressed by example, and the white individuals in many situations are not even objectively aware that they are doing it, but they are doing it, in passing from generation to generation a perception of being superior and being in authority. This has been passed from generation to generation for hundreds of years. And for hundreds of years, for generation after generation, it has been passed in black communities to not upset the apple cart.

ANN: That’s true. Oh my god, that is so true.

ELIAS: Therefore, it has been established and perpetuated for hundreds of years, these roles of the perpetrator or the victim. And I understand that people don’t like those words, but that is the actual situation and dynamic that has been being expressed and carried for hundreds of years.

And it has reached a breaking point, in which there are more and more and more white individuals that are questioning that perception and are discovering—just as you have—that they don’t necessarily agree with that past self and they don’t necessarily like it, and they aren’t going to choose it. And there are black individuals that are realizing their dynamic in that role of the victim and beginning more and more to find their voice and express, “I don’t want to be that victim. I’m not that victim. I may have been that individual pastly, but I’m not choosing to be that any longer.”

Therefore, on both sides people are beginning to change their perceptions, beginning to change importances, and THAT is what is creating the revolution.

(Recording of second part is interrupted after 21 minutes)

(Break occurs and new audio starts)

ELIAS: Continuing.

ANN: Continuing. We had a little bit of tension energy there. Okay, so after you finished, I was talking about how I know there’s no right or wrong, but obviously this feels really wrong, this one race thinking they’re superior over another race. And—

ELIAS: But that is part of the point. And that’s part of what is fueling the revolution, is that presently you have moved to the point where there are becoming more and more white individuals that are realizing, as you did, their past self and their present self, and looking at their past self and expressing they don’t necessarily agree with that, and that they want to generate different choices, and they are expressing different perceptions. And for black individuals, they are incorporating similar realizations in expressing that recognition of being a victim and choosing differently, not agreeing with it, not liking it and expressing, “No, I choose different.”

And in that, because BOTH sides are moving in directions of changing their perceptions, that is what is fueling the movement into revolution. Why? Because there ARE still many individuals that are holding to the past, and THAT is what is creating the conflict and the opposition. Because now the direction isn’t only that the black individuals are finding their voice, but that there a considerable number of white individuals that don’t agree any longer.

ANN: And I really… Like I feel, to think about it as just a black issue or black movement or a white issue, it’s like really, we do both have to come together. Blacks and whites have to come together to resolve this. One can’t resolve without the agreement of the other, it feels like.

ELIAS: Precisely. Precisely.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: That is what is happening. Now, in that, remember: What happens in revolutions? Revolutions happen because there is considerable unrest, unease, that people are being oppressed and they eventually move to a point in which they revolt. That is a revolution—

ANN: Mm-hm.

ELIAS: [Inaudible] people. But they are revolting against something, and what they revolt AGAINST is authority, because the authority is what is oppressing them and holding them under the boot. And in this, the people—YOU—are beginning to become aware, changing your perceptions, recognizing that interconnectedness. This is a part of it, my friend—

ANN: Mm-hm.

ELIAS: [inaudible] separate, that in the recognition of it, this is what is sparking that fire and expressing, “No. Enough. This is enough.” And in that, when you begin to express, “Enough. No more,” What happens? You expressed earlier in this conversation that you were speaking about the few and many. What happens to the few? Because the few fuel the authority.

ANN: Mm-hm.

ELIAS: Therefore, if they’re fueling those individuals that you look as authority, who are the authority? The police, the military, the government. They are the people that are in the positions of the authority. But even them, the people have greater numbers.

ANN: So, this is interesting about the authority. What kind of seems to be happening, at least in this moment, in my perception and other people’s perception is, let’s say Donald Trump representing the federal government is really looking kind of weak during all of this and fearful and idiotic. It seems like more the local governments, whether it’s a mayor or a governor are feeling… They feel like they have more sense, I would say. I almost feel like maybe there’s a stepdown from the wider to the more… Like, we’re not to the individual yet, but we’re going from a federal government to more localized governments. Maybe—is it like a stepping into our individual power, representative of that, do you think?

ELIAS: Definitely. Definitely. And remember, as we discussed, this shift is about the individual. And in being about the individual, it is shifting the importance from the collective—which is the authority—to the individual, which is the people.

ANN: Yeah. Wow. I mean, I think everybody that listens—not everybody, because… but most people that listen to Elias, this is like… This is like, okay, this is what we’ve been waiting for. This is what we want.


ANN: I just… It almost seems… Like I shake my head. It almost seems like… I don’t know, it’s unknown. I don’t know what it looks like. We haven’t created it yet. I feel like, I don’t know, like a kid at Christmas or something. It’s like on the brink. It’s like, are we going to do it? Is this going to happen? Can we do it? What’s it going to look like? I feel excited, I feel overwhelmed, I feel like AAAAAAAH! all at the same… There’s so many emotions swirling around in me, I don’t even know if I can tell you.

ELIAS: (Laughs) And I would say to you, my friend, that it is all actually excellent.

ANN: I think so.

ELIAS: It can be somewhat daunting, and I definitely, I definitely would acknowledge that, because revolutions include conflict.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: And conflict, many, many, many times includes violence.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: And when people don’t feel that they are being heard, they generally don’t express themselves more quietly.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: [Inaudible] generally become louder. Therefore, I would say that that also is a part of all of this.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: And that is somewhat daunting, because there are casualties. There are already casualties.

ANN: Oh yeah.

ELIAS: Revolution is war. There are always casualties in war. And in that, yes, you already have casualties. And I would say that what is encouraging is that you also have examples of (chuckles) your own teaching and your own making that you never followed, and now you can. And now is the time that it is more important than ever to follow that teaching of being poised and expressing in grace.

ANN: Yeah. That is so ironic. We taught it, but we didn’t do it. Interesting.

ELIAS: Correct. That is what you wanted to see. That is the reflection that you wanted to have. That is the manner in which you wanted to see yourselves, and therefore you created these reflections of these people that would express that and learned it through fear. But you never heeded your own (pause) [inaudible]. But now you can see that reflection and you can use it as an example, and not be like the other person but be yourself in your own expression of grace.

ANN: Yes. Yes, it is time.

ELIAS: You are yourself. You are unique. You are individual. And in that, your expression of grace and poise is not the same as another individual, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have it—you do.

ANN: Absolutely. I get it. Oh my god. Elias, Elias, Elias. (Elias laughs) This is good. This is really good. It feels very empowering and encouraging, and I know there is more to come, but…

ELIAS: But in that, the more to come, I would say to you, my dear friend, can be encouraging.

ANN: Yeah.

ELIAS: It can be what you make it to be.

ANN: Yeah. So, I was thinking: Now, is it more… like when we set our intentions and pay attention to our feelings and our moods and like choose our feelings more, choose our vibrations more intentionally, it feels… I have a hunch that maybe it’s going to be even more powerful than it was in the past.


ANN: Yeah. Yeah.

ELIAS: I definitely agree.

ANN: So, I want to maybe clear up on this a little bit—circling back around to my work—there is this guy, I had just interacted… It was a purchaser, and I was just interacting on email with him. And he wanted something and I said we couldn’t do it. And then he, you know, in my mind kind of stomped his feet and acted like a kid and started acting like a child, but instead of just getting mad at the company, he also pointed disparaging remarks towards myself personally. And I just said, You know, I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to work with him. And I told my boss, I said, “I’m not going to work with him. If I lose my job, I don’t really care. I’m going to cancel our meeting.” [Inaudible]

ELIAS: One moment. I would express that there is significant interference.

ANN: All right. Let me see if I can move and if that will help.

Hi. Can you hear me better here?


ANN: Okay. So, what I was saying was, this gentleman that I did not want to work with, because he has said disparaging remarks to me, I was a little like, “Nope!” I don’t know what feeling it was, whether I was angry or… It was more like determination and stubbornness, or fed up, I’m not going to work with him. And then, it was about a week before I actually sent the email out telling him that I was cancelling our meeting.

But I was thinking about what you said about following feelings, and I knew I was hanging onto this feeling, because I didn’t want to change my mind. I was like, “Nope. I’m not going to do it.” And I hung onto this. But it didn’t feel like it was bad, hanging onto… It felt almost stronger for me to hang onto this feeling. I was like, “Because I am not doing this.” I don’t know. It just felt more determined. And so I did cancel the meeting and there was a big to-do. He actually ended up sending me an email apologizing, and then I told him that I would have the meeting since he apologized. I mean, there's more to it than that, but that’s the end of it; I mean, that’s the short version. So, my question, one was it was just interesting because you said, you know, don’t feed the feeling. Like why was I feeding…? It felt, I guess, in my mind I had the impression feeding feelings weren’t beneficial, but it felt beneficial for me at the time to feed it.

ELIAS: Now, let me stop you momentarily

ANN: That’s why I’m bringing it up. (Both laugh)

ELIAS: And let me also express a clarification, that you yourself even used different words, which is actually more accurate. You used the word “feeding” the feeling rather than following the feeling.

ANN: Ah!

ELIAS: Now, in this, what I would say to you is first of all, you were aware of what you were doing.

ANN: Yes.

ELIAS: You were doing it intentionally.

ANN: Yes.

ELIAS: Let me say to you that when an individual is following a feeling, many times—or I would even say most of the time—they don’t realize they are following the feeling, it is so automatic. And what they are doing is they are allowing the feeling to dictate their choices.

Now, what you were doing is different, because what you were doing WAS feeding the feeling, which you were doing intentionally. You wanted to move in a certain direction, and in order to do that effectively, you realized within yourself that in that time framework it was important for you to maintain a particular stance. And in order to maintain that particular stance and not cave in, it was helpful to you to feed the feeling.

ANN: Yes. Exactly.

ELIAS: Therefore, you USED that feeling to help you to maintain something that you wanted. But ALL of it was intentional.

ANN: Yes. That’s true. Okay, good.

ELIAS: That is very different. That isn’t following the feeling.

Now, there are times in which people do recognize that they are following a feeling and they ARE aware of it, but they will express they can’t stop it, and that isn’t actually accurate; it is simply that they don’t know how to stop it. It isn’t that they can’t stop it. Or, they don’t WANT to stop it, and therefore they say they can’t. But in that, the individual may be aware that they are following the feeling, and they are choosing to continue to follow the feeling and allow the feeling to grip them and to influence their choices automatically. That is not what you did.

You generated a feeling, you listened to it, you knew what it was about, therefore you got the statement. You knew what you were doing, and in that, knowing what you were doing, you were being very intentional and moving in a direction of choosing intentionally and then also recognizing that it would be very easy for you to cave in and change your direction if you WEREN’T maintaining that feeling.

ANN: Mm-hm.

ELIAS: Therefore, you chose to feed it and fuel it and keep stoking it to maintain your position. Which, I would say congratulations!

ANN: Thank you. Because it felt—

ELIAS: I would say to you this is an excellent example of a difference between following a feeling and USING a feeling.

ANN: And you know why I didn’t like really beat my… Like everything you said perfectly fits what happened, but I knew when I was doing it, since I was aware of doing it, and the reason I kept doing it is because it felt powerful to me. It did not feel disempowering. So, I thought there you go. If it felt empowering, that was my signal that I’m on my right path for me, you know.

ELIAS: Yes. I very much agree.

ANN: Wow. Yeah, that was good. Oh my god, Elias.

ELIAS: Congratulations!

ANN: Yeah. I feel like just in this short period… One thing, like everything that’s going on I am worn out, but I feel like I’m getting a crash course in something and I’m just… (Elias laughs) It’s feeling good, though.

ELIAS: I would say that you are excelling at it and that you are doing very well. Yes, I would agree that you are moving very quickly, but I would also express to you that presently, although it may seem that everything is moving very slowly, it isn’t. It’s all moving very quickly.

ANN: You know, I have such a desire to have this happen. Like you say, have the individual reclaim their power—I don’t even know the right word to use, but individual authority, I want to see that SO bad. Boy, if desire has anything to do with making it happen, I am puttin' the desire out there, like in spades. (Elias laughs) And then, I know desire, that’s half of the creation process and then it’s letting it happen.

The other thing that’s kind of encouraging is I don’t know and I am uncertain, but now I’m getting more and more comfortable with not knowing and uncertainty, because this whole coronavirus thing, I couldn’t have dreamt that up objectively in a billion years. And now that I’m looking I’m like wow, that was kind of ingenious, and that happened and I didn’t even have to really quote-unquote do anything. (Both laugh) It just happened.

ELIAS: (Laughs) I would say that this has been a time framework in which realistically I would say to you [that] you began in this time, in relation to the virus and everything that was happening, somewhat unsteady and uncertain, and you very quickly, VERY quickly moved in a direction of making intentional choices and allowing yourself to be comfortable and to stop pushing yourself in that direction of productivity.

ANN: Oh yeah. I sure did. (Laughs)

ELIAS: I would be tremendously, tremendously acknowledging you in that, in how well you succeeded in that. And I express to you, my friend, sincerely, well done.

ANN: Thank you.

ELIAS: You are very welcome and deserving.

ANN: And thank you for being along on my journey with me.

ELIAS: (Laughs) I would say to you, my friend, this is excellent and wondrous to behold. Watching this type of movement and accomplishment is excellent.

ANN: Mm-hm.

ELIAS: Therefore, what I would say to you is thank you for including myself in your journey and listening.

ANN: Yeah. Oh man. (Elias laughs) Wow. What an exciting time to be on Planet Earth, is what I’M saying.

ELIAS: I agree. I very much agree.

ANN: Okay. So, I guess the bell hasn’t rung. We must have some more time, but I feel… I feel like a little more light-hearted subjects might be a nice way to end. (Laughs)

ELIAS: Excellent! Yes, I agree.

ANN: So, in thinking of, you know, at our house in North Carolina—you know in D.C. we live in an apartment, but in our house in North Carolina we have a lawn, and I decided I don’t want to put chemicals on it anymore. I want to start living a more earth-friendly life. And I had read somewhere about clover was a good thing to do instead of a lawn, like a clover lawn because you don’t have to have pesticides and it puts nitrogen or something into the soil. I don’t know if it’s nitrogen, but puts something good into the soil. And it’s good for bees and da-da-da. So, here in the climate currently of coastal southern North Carolina, do you think a clover lawn will do well? Or, do you think there’s something else I could do that’d be better?

ELIAS: I would say that clover [inaudible]. I would also say that [inaudible] can research, or in your terms look into a variation of that, a… it isn’t actually a grass per se—it is more in the clover family which incorporates the name of Dichondra.

ANN: Dichondra. Okay.

ELIAS: That is a considerably hardy type of clover. It generates a quite lush bed of very soft ground cover. It is susceptible to weeds, therefore it does require some maintenance, but it is considerably hardy.

ANN: What about a combination of Dichondra and regular clover?

ELIAS: I would say yes. The situation with clover is that it does have a tendency at times to be slightly vining.

ANN: Okay.

ELIAS: Therefore, a combination would be actually excellent, because that would likely keep the clover more close to the ground.

ANN: All right. And then I know I’ve asked you about this before, I asked you about the vines. We have these vines—they're going to win the war. I tried to win a battle, but I know (Elias laughs). And you had said give them something else to grow on. So, I’m going around, I was trying to save a cactus and a yucca, and I have an oleander bush that I want to save, so I… you know, a combination of pulled, cut around there and then I’ve been trying to push them—the vines—elsewhere, but they’re so fricking overwhelming. There’s got to be something else I can do with those vines, Elias. I have all the access to all the knowledge and so do you, but you know how to access it easier than I do right now. (Both laugh) That’s why I’m asking you. (Laughs)

ELIAS: Where these are, are in what position?

ANN: They are like in a natural… they’re in the back of the house, which is not in… Well, they are in the lawn, too, but I don’t care about that. But they’re just vines growing up in the landscape, all over the place. And they grow up on the deck, they grow up on… a yucca, there’s yucca trees out there, cactus out there, blueberries—not blueberries but blackberries, which I don’t mind the blackberry vines because they give me nice fruit. But… I don’t know. I don’t even know if it’s that important, to tell you the truth, Elias, but…

ELIAS: What I would say is it is a matter of incorporating another type of plant that is equally as strong.

ANN: Yeah, but then wouldn't THAT become invasive everywhere?

ELIAS: That is the difficulty, is that it would be. BUT what I would say is, you could actually move in a direction of rivaling this plant with a plant such as bamboo. Now, bamboo is a very invasive plant. It is exceptionally strong and it grows very hardy, and it also has a tendency to choke out other plants. But the difference is that once you have established bamboo and it has taken over in the area where the vines are—because bamboo is actually, in a manner of speaking, more controllable—you can contain it. But once it has been established, you can also dig it up and rid yourself of it.

ANN: Okay. That’s good. All right. Good.

ELIAS: Therefore, that is a plant that will match a different plant and will likely move in a direction of choking out the unwanted plant, and then once it is established then you can actually get rid of it.

ANN: Or keep part of it.

ELIAS: You could. You could. And—

ANN: Okay, actually that is a good…I like that.

ELIAS: And the benefit with bamboo is that you CAN corral it. You can contain it. It does require maintenance in pruning it back, because it will continue to grow and grow and grow, but you can contain it and you can maintain it in a particular area.

ANN: Hm. Okay. All right. That’s good with that. (Elias laughs)

Now, so what would be…? Okay, now what am I going to talk to you about? Let’s see. We’ve talked about a lot of stuff. I had two hours with you, and that doesn’t happen often. (Elias laughs) Let me check my notes here to see if there’s anything else that I might miss.

Okay, so I’m going to ask you this: I think some other people were being polite and didn’t want to just come out and ask you about this, but when you (laughs)… You were asked about this, but the point that I think everyone was questioning wasn’t necessarily addressed. So, when you said that Greece and Bosnia were lying about their numbers, I think what had everyone confused about that, or what—

ELIAS: They are not lying about them, but they are embellishing them.

ANN: Okay, embellishing. Okay, that’s better. So, they’re embellishing. And what had people confused about that is on the news or on the reports, Greece and Bosnia are actually saying they have very few. So, if they were embellishing, it doesn’t seem like they embellished that much. It can still be a true statement, because if they only had one or two and they said they have three or four hundred, that is an embellishment. So, I just wanted to bring that point up because people are like, “I’m still not satisfied” with your answer. So, knowing that they’re only reporting relatively few cases—

ELIAS: But in that, what has been the result?

ANN: I don’t know.

ELIAS: They have been noticed.

ANN: Okay. So, was what I said, that even though it’s only… and it could even be different now, but the time I looked it was like only three or four hundred, and that was an embellishment of…Even though it was a low number, it was still enough of a thing to be counted as having this disease, right?

ELIAS: Yes. Yes.

ANN: Okay.

ELIAS: Because let me express to you, if they were expressing they had none or they had—

ANN: Three.

ELIAS: — five cases, no one would believe that.

ANN: All right.

ELIAS: Because in this, you are addressing to a global pandemic, or what you have defined as a global pandemic.

[The timer for the end of the session rings]

Therefore, if certain countries are adding into the fray, if they are wanting to be noticed, and in that they are expressing in a certain direction, expressing that they have NONE is not actually moving them in the direction of being part of.

ANN: Correct.

ELIAS: Because what I was expressing: They want to be part of.

ANN: Part of.

ELIAS: They want to be recognized as part of. They don’t want to be excluded. They are ALWAYS excluded. (Laughs)

ANN: Yes. Okay.

ELIAS: They don’t want to be excluded. Therefore, if they are expressing that they have nothing, first of all the rest of the world wouldn’t believe them. They would believe that these are countries that are covering up something. Therefore, other countries would look at them with suspicion, which is precisely what they don’t want. Therefore, even though they may not HAVE very many, they ARE embellishing their numbers in a manner to be recognized as being part of.

ANN: All right. Well, that makes sense—perfect sense.

ELIAS: Which was the point, which was what I was expressing. They want to be part of. They want to be recognized. And in that, these are countries that have been considerably struggling in recent time frameworks. I would say within the last fifty years they have been significantly struggling, and being part of gives them a type of recognition in which then they can be part of aid.

ANN: Ahhh.

ELIAS: Which is what I expressed.

ANN: Yeah. All right. All right. Well, that’s our closing bell. So, Elias (Elias chuckles), it’s been wonderful. I’m just very thrilled. And I am now going to enjoy my non-productivity this week. (Elias laughs) That is my goal. (Both laugh)

ELIAS: Your non-productivity. (Both laugh) I would be tremendously encouraging you in that.

ANN: Well, it’s great, Elias. It’s great. Maybe after we get through the revolution, through shifting, I can finally just get around and start playing with some magic, but right now, I’m not going to even try.

ELIAS: (Laughs) Very well, my friend. (Chuckles)

ANN: All right. All right. Love you!

ELIAS: And I express tremendous love to you, my friend, and great, great encouragement. Congratulations in what you are accomplishing, and I am with you in support every moment.

ANN: And I appreciate that.

ELIAS: Until our next meeting, dear friend, au revoir.

ANN: Au revoir.

(Elias departs after 40 minutes)

(Total session time was 2 hours 3 minutes)