Session 201807022

Session 201807022
“A Son's Experience of Psychosis”
“Genuinely Placing Yourself in the First Position”
“Real Reality: the Validity of Individual Perception”

Monday, July 2, 2018 (Private/Phone)

Participants: Mary (Michael) and Alicia (Tisara)

ELIAS: Good morning!

ALICIA: Good morning.

ELIAS: And how have you been proceeding?

ALICIA: Well, I’m eager to talk to you. Some people on the forum very nicely are being very supportive and allowing this session to take place with you. It’s been a very long time since I’ve spoken with you, actually, physically. And what I wanted to do today is talk about my son and myself, and my reactions and learning how to deal with what I’m going through currently with him.

Rose asked some questions of mine to you about my son, Daniel. And you invited me to engage in a session. So, I guess that’s what’s happening right now this very minute is (Elias laughs) I’ve taken you up on the invitation.

ELIAS: Correct.

ALICIA: Of course, I want to talk about myself because I’m being greatly affected by this, and I do know that things aren’t going to get better as long as I’m being affected. But what I wanted to do is start out with my first question that I had Rose ask you, when you did say you would invite me to engage in a session.

Right now, he’s quite psychotic, and he’s sort of been stuck in this what officially is called psychosis, with a lot of delusions. And I had asked Rose if… Because in the beginning it was very difficult for me. Actually, it scared me because I’ve just not dealt a lot with people who are not in the official reality. And then I thought, well, I saw him then as having a struggle, that this was sort of a metaphor for how he has been bullied his whole life.

He’s twenty-seven, doesn’t have any friends, doesn’t have any girlfriend, doesn’t have a job. He was really traumatized horribly, because this wasn’t just a year of bullying but it was all through public school years, which is twelve years. And he just kind of shut down and froze. And now he’s seeing his brothers get this more independent life and he himself wants that, but he doesn’t quite have the skills or the experience. It’s sort of overwhelming.

So I thought maybe the stress was part of what was bringing on this psychosis. And you had said that I was partially correct but partially not, and that’s when you said I invite her (me) to engage in a session with you. So, what piece am I maybe missing?

ELIAS: Very well. What I would say to you is that these factors have definitely created significant influence and have exacerbated the situation, but they didn’t cause it.


ELIAS: Therefore, he isn’t experiencing in this manner because of the bullying. The bullying has exacerbated the situation and intensified it, but I would say to you that even if that had never occurred, he would be experiencing similar to what he is now because this is the direction that he has created.

And understand: when I say that, that is not a statement in relation to an objective choice.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Because the individual isn’t generating an intentional, objective choice in these situations. It is a matter of a choice of a particular direction and experience in relation to a lifetime, not one particular subject. Therefore—

ALICIA: I’m not sure I understand that last piece. It’s not a lifetime?


ALICIA: Oh, it is.


ALICIA: I see.

ELIAS: Therefore, this is not what you would observe as an objective choice in the moment with an intention to be experiencing discomfort or confusion or fear or any of those expressions, but rather that this is a choice that the individual generated in their pool of probabilities when they entered into this focus as a particular type of experiences, choosing to engage reality from this angle.

ALICIA: Wow. Because how does that benefit him?

ELIAS: All experiences are a benefit.

ALICIA: Beneficial. Yeah.

ELIAS: Every experience is a benefit because it is an experience.


ELIAS: Because every experience offers information. And in that, what I would say to you also – and this is difficult, I very much grant you – but it is a matter of also remembering that just in the same manner as yourself, this individual is essence. It is one focus of attention of essence, just as you are one focus of attention of essence. You are essence. He is essence also.

And in that, this is one direction of attention in thousands. And in that, this is a series of experiences and expressions that are being explored from this angle. It may not necessarily be comfortable, but that isn’t to say that it isn’t valuable or that it isn’t a benefit—it is.

ALICIA: That’s the hard part for me to—

ELIAS: What is important in this situation is you.


ELIAS: And how this is affecting you, or how you are allowing it to affect you, because that is what you are accustomed to, because that is what you know. And in that, becoming more self-aware, you can become more aware that you have more choices than you realize.

And in that also, that you do have influence. You don’t create the other individual’s reality, you don’t create their choices, but you do have some influence. Therefore, in that, what can you influence? You can influence what you reinforce in relation to the other individual’s perception. By what you do, that reinforces the other individual’s perception in some capacity. Just as by what he does, it influences YOUR perception. Because why? Because you are paying attention to that. He also is paying attention to you.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Therefore, in that, that reinforces whatever his perception already is, just as your perception may already be that you aren’t doing enough or you are doing something wrong or that your perception may be that he is not capable in certain directions. That perception reinforces HIS perception, and influences in relation to if he becomes angry, you influence him to blame you, because you are already expressing an energy that is questioning yourself.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: That perhaps you are doing something wrong or perhaps you are not doing enough, or you should do something different. That questioning of yourself creates an influence in energy that he will immediately attach to. And if he becomes angry, that will turn into blame.

ALICIA: So let me ask you—

ELIAS: The concern and the worry that you express in relation to him translates to him that he isn’t capable.


ELIAS: And therefore, he will respond in like kind. How will he respond in like kind? He will generate actions that express that he can’t do or that he isn’t capable. He will do something in which it will be an unacceptable behavior and either you or some other authority will then be involved to rectify the situation, because he is incapable. He will display behaviors that are being exacerbated because there is an influence of your energy also.

Now; what that does is it creates an ongoing, never-ending circle between the two of you in which neither of you are comfortable.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: And neither of you knows what to do about it. And therefore, you merely continue in this circle over and over and over again, and you do this dance together that is very uncomfortable. And you label it all under love: you do all of this because you love him, he does all of this because he loves you.

No. Neither direction is an expression of love. Worrying, concern, is not an expression of love. It is an expression of discounting. It discounts the other individual, and it discounts you. It is obvious how it discounts the other individual.

ALICIA: Right. How does it discount me?

ELIAS: How it discounts you is that if you are placing yourself in the position that you are the one that must take care of or be responsible for, the reason you are placing yourself in that position is because you already are judging yourself and discounting yourself that you didn’t do enough to begin with. You did something wrong, and therefore you are responsible, and therefore it IS your responsibility to take care of.

Incorrect. You aren’t creating his reality—he is. You aren’t creating his choices—he is.

And in that, I am not expressing that you have never in his lifetime generated any choices that were questionable in your own perception. You likely have, many times, but you have generated the best or the only choices that you had the awareness to engage at the time.

Therefore, whatever you may have engaged in relation to him as a parent that you yourself might question, I am not offering you an excuse for; I am merely expressing that it isn’t a matter of judging yourself, because whatever you have done pastly, you have done in relation to what your awareness was at the time. It is futile and pointless to question yourself in relation to what you could have or should have done differently pastly. Whatever you did, you did, and you did with whatever awareness you had at the time. It doesn’t serve you to question yourself in that capacity.

And worrying about another individual is an insidious expression of questioning yourself and judging yourself for what wasn’t good enough pastly, and therefore you worry now because it is your responsibility. But it isn’t.

What IS your responsibility is you, and paying attention to you. That doesn’t mean pay attention to yourself to the exclusion of everything around you—of course not. That would be impossible. What I would say to you is it is a matter of moving, by practicing, in that direction of genuinely placing yourself in that first position.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Now; in many capacities, how you can begin doing that is use what is already familiar to you and what you already do, but in a different manner. Therefore, what that means is you already pay attention to the other individual. You are already consumed with paying attention to what your son is doing or what he is feeling or what his perception is. Therefore, it is a matter of using that – which you already do – in a different manner, to benefit you. How do you that, or how do you begin to do that?


ELIAS: Let us begin with worrying. When you are worried about him in some manner, stop and ask yourself what are you specifically worried about. In that, your answer will likely be you are worried because if he continues to do a certain action he will move in a direction and he will likely harm himself.


ELIAS: Or something bad will happen to him. Then, after you give yourself that answer, then ask yourself how does that affect you. How does that directly affect you? What are you afraid of, if that happens to him? If whatever it is that you are worried about happens to him, what does that mean to you?

ALICIA: He will be hurt.

ELIAS: And what does that mean to YOU? How does that affect YOU?

ALICIA: I will be devastated, depending on the extent of—

ELIAS: Aha! No, no, no. Stop. (Alicia laughs) If he—let us say he becomes physically hurt.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Let us say that he is doing some action that you are concerned about, and you are worried about him because if he keeps doing this action he will physically harm himself.

ALICIA: Well, I’ll feel it’s my fault. Am I closer? (Laughs)

ELIAS: Ah! How is it your fault?

ALICIA: Because I didn’t do enough to protect him, or I didn’t give him a better judgment—

ELIAS: And what could you have done differently to protect him?

ALICIA: I could have shared my better judgment, I guess.

ELIAS: And would he accept that?

ALICIA: Maybe, maybe not.

ELIAS: Likely no. Therefore, what could you do that would prevent that from happening? (Pause)

Let us use a hypothetical example of a real scenario. Now in this hypothetical example, let us say that he is distressed, and when he is distressed he engages a vehicle, a car. And when he is in a car and he is distressed, he drives very fast and recklessly. And this creates a scenario in which you become very agitated and worried, because you are afraid that he will be driving recklessly and very fast and he will generate what you perceive to be a car accident. And in that, he will be injured.


ELIAS: Logical, what you think of as reasonable. Now; if he enters that car and drives away, what could you have done different?

ALICIA: Well, in this—

ELIAS: How could you have stopped him?

ALICIA: Taken the keys away?

ELIAS: That won’t stop him.

ALICIA: Well, he won’t have access to the car.

ELIAS: Or so you think.

ALICIA: (Laughs) Yeah. I think that’s what I would think.

ELIAS: Therefore, the only thing you could do would be to take the keys away. But he may have an extra key.


ELIAS: Or he may be determined to engage this action, and therefore he may choose a different car. He might take someone else’s car, or he might actually go to a car dealer and engage a car from them.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: There are many different options. If he is determined to do a particular action—

ALICIA: He’ll find a way. (Chuckles)

ELIAS: — you can’t stop him.

ALICIA: Stop him. Yeah. Okay. (Sighs)

ELIAS: He is not an infant that you could physically restrain. You can’t prevent an action from occurring if he chooses to engage it. And it isn’t your fault if he chooses to engage a particular action, because it is his choice. You can’t stop it, and you aren’t responsible for it.

Now; that doesn’t mean you don’t care.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Of course you care. You love him, and of course you don’t want him to be hurt or injured, but the point in this is the point about worry. It doesn’t prevent or stop any action from occurring. You can worry and worry and worry until you actually create yourself being physically ill with worry, and it doesn’t change any of the physical actions that are occurring. It doesn’t change the reality of the situation.

ALICIA: I already did that, by the way. I gave myself diabetes from all this worry.

ELIAS: And has it changed anything?

ALICIA: No. That’s what I’m just thinking.

ELIAS: Exactly.

ALICIA: I’ve got your point.

ELIAS: It doesn’t change anything.

ALICIA: No. It does not. I still have diabetes, and he still is the way he is.

ELIAS: And what that actually accomplishes is harming YOU.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: It doesn’t change anything that HE does.

ALICIA: Well, can I ask you, worry is one thing, and that is very helpful what you just said, and I have to remember that because I do worry. But what I’ve been noticing lately about myself is – and actually, I’ve been feeling this more than just lately, I’m realizing, because I’m looking at my past actions, and I think that this has made me quite depressed. And I’m wondering where that’s coming from. Part of it is that I just sometimes feel overwhelming sadness, because he does cry and he does express his own sorrow. But…

ELIAS: You can express your sympathy with that, and you can express compassion in relation to that, but not reinforce it by being concerned or worrying or echoing.

ALICIA: But how do I deal with the depression that I feel? Like there are times when I feel—

ELIAS: What I would say to you is that this is very understandable that you are expressing and feeling that depression. You have already created a physical manifestation in relation to all of this worrying—


ELIAS: — and all of this concern and all of this judgment with yourself.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: THAT wasn’t enough (Alicia laughs) to gain your attention. THAT wasn’t enough—


ELIAS: — to communicate to you to stop. Therefore, in addition to creating the physical manifestation, you are creating this depression.

ALICIA: To get my attention.

ELIAS: Perhaps THAT will be enough that you will begin to stop and actually look at your participation, because that is what you have choices about. You have choices about what you do, not about what anyone else does.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: But you DO have choices in relation to what YOU do, and you CAN change what you do and how you are expressing. And it isn’t an action that will occur in one day. It requires some practice, because you have become very familiar with what you do, and it is so automatic that I would say most of the time you aren’t even aware of what you are doing.

ALICIA: Well, one thing that I think that I have just begun to realize over the last few days, maybe less than that, is that I sort of wonder if this depression, aside from being there to gain my attention, is because when my attention is so much on him I disappear myself, that that’s sort of a sorrow to my spirit or my soul or my essence because it’s like I stop participating in life.

ELIAS: Yes. I would very much agree. And what I would say to you in this is what is encouraging is that you can change it. You are not doomed to continue for the rest of your life in this experience and in this direction. You can change it. It can be different. YOU can be different. And you can be satisfied and comfortable. I know those are expressions that you definitely aren’t familiar with.

ALICIA: (Laughs) Only on a nanosecond. I do (laughs)…

ELIAS: I would say that you actually can become so familiar with those expressions that they can be natural and they can be your norm, rather than being ill and being depressed and being uncomfortable and being afraid.

ALICIA: Right. Well, that’s nice to know. So the first step is just having this really deep awareness that whatever I do is not going to stop him because this is his creation. I take that that’s sort of a number one?

ELIAS: Correct. Correct.

ALICIA: And then, is there anything else?



ELIAS: Now; in addition to that, it is a matter of catching yourself when you are concerned, when you are worried, when you are giving advice – even when it is asked for. Especially when it is asked for.


ELIAS: Because then you automatically are in your element, (Alicia laughs) that you know better, you know more, and you have the better answers. And that is being REQUESTED, and therefore you are definitely in your element with that.

I would express to you, no. In all of these time frameworks when you are concerned, when you are worried, when you are wanting to give advice, when you are not speaking but thinking about whatever he is expressing or whatever he is doing, and thinking how he could do it better, or how he could do it different, or what would make him feel better – in any of these scenarios, in any of these situations, it is a matter of catching yourself, and when you catch yourself, reminding yourself that all of those expressions are discounting him.

ALICIA: That’s why he gets mad, even though he asks me.

ELIAS: Yes. Because ALL of those expressions are discounting him. He is not good enough, he is not strong enough, --

ALICIA: I got it.

ELIAS: --he is not capable enough. He is not enough, not enough, not enough, not enough. And that is what you are expressing to him, over and over and over and over and over again. Is that what you want to tell him?


ELIAS: No. It isn’t.

ALICIA: The opposite.

ELIAS: You love him. This is your son. You love him. You want to tell him how he IS enough, but what you are telling him is that he isn’t enough.

ALICIA: I see.

ELIAS: Therefore, every time you have one of these expressions, every time you catch yourself in any of those scenarios, any of those thought processes, any of those feelings, you stop, you pause, you remind yourself: this is me telling him he isn’t enough. That will stop you. You won’t like that. (Alicia laughs)

And in that, if you tell yourself each time that you are telling him he isn’t enough, that will definitely gain your attention.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: That will gain your attention more than even making yourself sick or depressed, because in that, you are using what IS familiar to you. What is familiar to you is paying attention to him, because that equates in your perception to an expression of love. It isn’t an expression of love, but you don’t know that yet because that is how you have perceived love IS expressed for most of your life.

But through this new direction, you will learn what the actual expression of love is. It isn’t taking care of and being responsible for another individual, but a genuine expression of love is truly acknowledging the other individual and appreciating them. You aren’t appreciating him when you are worried about him.


ELIAS: You aren’t appreciating him when you are attempting to advise him in what he can do different or better.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: You aren’t appreciating him when he is yelling at you and blaming you, but you can genuinely be appreciating him when you can remove yourself from that position of continuously perceiving him as not enough.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Let me acknowledge to you that perceiving another individual in this type of situation as not enough isn’t actually blaming them. You DON’T blame them.


ELIAS: It isn’t a matter of fault; it is a matter of deficiency – but he isn’t deficient. And let me express to you that this piece is very strong, and it reinforces over and over and over again how YOU must be responsible and how the other individual isn’t enough, because it isn’t their fault—they are simply deficient. It is a disability.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: And therefore, that stirs even more compassion within you, and it reinforces all of these expressions that are actually generating the opposite of what you want to express. He isn’t deficient, and he isn’t disabled. He IS able, he IS capable and he IS efficient.

ALICIA: So let me ask you this, if it’s okay to interrupt you. What you’re talking about makes a lot of sense to me because being in the mental health field, or just being in the world I guess, because I’m sure just not people who are in the mental health field experience this or think this, but that someone who’s psychotic has hallucinations of a visual or auditory type or has these very strong delusions, like he’ll say, “I am freeing North Korea,” “I wrote this skit on Saturday Night Live,” “I wrote this movie,” “The porn industry is adopting me” – all these things that quote-unquote are thought of in our society as “crazy,” obviously they have some benefit to the people who are experiencing them.


ALICIA: And I guess what I have a hard time with, and if I could maybe realize this it wouldn’t be so upsetting for me to hear this, because my perceptions would be altered maybe away from the idea that these are crazy thoughts or they shouldn’t have them, or they should be more in the official reality of the world that we all exist in. What…?

ELIAS: Ah. Now; let me stop you for one moment then.

ALICIA: Yes. Yes.

ELIAS: As a rational, intelligent, aware individual (chuckles), listen to that statement that these people should be participating in the world in reality along with the rest of you—

ALICIA: Yeah, because we don’t understand it.

ELIAS: — in the same capacity.

ALICIA: Right. I think that’s because I don’t understand it.

ELIAS: Because you are so thrilled and excited and in awe and wonder of your reality that you definitely want the other individual to participate in your reality in the same manner that you do—and they can create diabetes and depression, too.

ALICIA: (Laughs) Hey, come join me. It’s a lot of fun over here.

ELIAS: (Laughs) Yes. Stop engaging YOUR reality in the way that you are and create a reality that is the same as mine, because it is so much better.

ALICIA: Right. Because it’s quote-unquote “official.” We all are thinking in the same lines.

ELIAS: Yes, because it is more in keeping with most individuals – (cagily) although that is questionable at this point in your timeline of reality.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: But (laughs) I would express that it is questionable whether most individuals are actually creating some other version of reality that is different from what you have recognized as the official reality. Remember also: there is no actual official reality. There is only YOUR reality. Each individual creates their reality individually. There is no official reality.

But I agree with you, that there are similarities with the majority of individuals—or let us say almost the majority of individuals—that generate similarities in how you perceive your reality, in that you don’t incorporate your imagination as part of your official reality.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Right. Because you perceive your imagination as fantasy and not real.

ALICIA: Right. Right. So is this—when you said one of the things that I could learn, I guess what I’m associating is when you said one of the things I’m learning is how to change perception in relation to duplicity?

ELIAS: Yes. Yes. And how would you interpret that? How do you view learning about duplicity in everything that we have been discussing?

ALICIA: That there is a right way to do things and there is a wrong way to do things, and that’s the train that I’m on, but I can also get off that train. And—

ELIAS: Correct.

ALICIA: — not judge right or wrong.

ELIAS: Correct.

ALICIA: And just see it as is, and—

ELIAS: Correct.

ALICIA: --and move through it without that.

ELIAS: Correct. His reality isn’t wrong—it is different.

ALICIA: Different. Very different.

ELIAS: It isn’t not real.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: It IS real. It is different.

ALICIA: Different. Right.

ELIAS: It is equally as real as your reality.

ALICIA: Uh-huh. Okay. Interesting. That’s an important concept.

ELIAS: It isn’t imagined, in your perception. The factor that it is significantly different from your reality doesn’t mean it isn’t real (chuckles)—it is.

ALICIA: And I think I frustrate him, because he’ll say to me, “You don’t believe me. You’re saying I’m lying.”

ELIAS: Precisely.

ALICIA: And that probably—

ELIAS: Once again, there is the judgment.

ALICIA: Right. Right. So, if I did that less, would that help him more? I presume? (Laughs)

ELIAS: Definitely. Definitely. Let me express to you in this manner: Think about an individual that you perceive as normal, that you perceive as sane and that generates a similar or the same type of reality as yourself.

Now; if you engage that individual, and you are approaching them with the perception and the attitude that they are entirely wrong and you don’t believe them, what will they likely do?

ALICIA: Shut down, I would think. Stop.

ELIAS: No. They attempt to prove that they are NOT wrong.

ALICIA: Oh. Yes, of course. That’s the first thing they do.

ELIAS: They move in the direction of defense and move in the direction of attempting to prove to you that they aren’t wrong.

ALICIA: Yeah. “You’re wrong, Alicia.” (Laughs)

ELIAS: Which is precisely what he is doing.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: The more he receives from you that you don’t believe him or that something is wrong with him or that he isn’t enough, the more he moves in a direction of proving to you what he knows is real.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: Therefore, how that translates to you in your reality is that he acts out more, he expresses more, he generates more behaviors that to you prove that he is delusional.

ALICIA: I see. That makes sense.

ELIAS: If he doesn’t have to PROVE to you that his reality is real and that it IS true, then he doesn’t have to generate those behaviors of acting out and creating situations and scenarios and actions that appear to you to be delusional and crazy. He doesn’t have to do that if he doesn’t have to prove that his reality is real.

ALICIA: That makes a lot of sense. I got it.

ELIAS: Therefore, that is a very obvious manner in which how you interact influences what he chooses in his behavior.

ALICIA: I see. Or it keeps something going.

ELIAS: Yes. Yes.

ALICIA: Okay. Well, our time is just about—

ELIAS: Whereas—

ALICIA: Okay. Go ahead.

ELIAS: — the benefit of, as you have expressed, being in the mental health profession. Now; in that also, the reason I have expressed that as a benefit is that that is another avenue that is familiar to you that you can use to your benefit. Think about other situations. If a child is abused, who does it generally gravitate to? The abuser.

ALICIA: Yeah. The abuser. Right.

ELIAS: Why? Because—

ALICIA: Because it’s familiar.

ELIAS: — it is attempting to emulate the behavior of the abuser, and it is attempting to prove itself to the abuser. If it can prove itself and if it can emulate, then it will be accepted by the abuser, therefore it gravitates to the abuser.

Use your knowledge to benefit you. I am not expressing that you are an abuser.

ALICIA: Right. No. I get it.

ELIAS: But if you don’t believe something, HE will automatically gravitate to that to prove otherwise, because he wants your approval.

ALICIA: Right. Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got that now. I mean, I can really see that, looking back at what you’re saying.

ELIAS: He knows you love him. You are important to him, and he knows he is important to you.

ALICIA: Right.

ELIAS: But he wants to be important to you in a manner that he perceives is good and real, not in a manner of he is important to you because there is something wrong with him.

ALICIA: Right. He’s sick and disabled.

ELIAS: Correct.

ALICIA: All right.

ELIAS: As it stands presently, in his perception he is important to you for the wrong reasons. He wants to be important to you, but for the right reasons.

ALICIA: Elias, I am hearing Mary jingle.


ALICIA: (Laughs) I’ve got to hang up. But I could go on and on. I so am appreciative of our time together. It’s been very, very helpful, and I will think about this throughout the next few days.

ELIAS: And I shall be with you continuously, encouraging you and being supportive to you, my friend.

ALICIA: Thank you so much, Elias.

ELIAS: You can do this, and you can be successful. And I am tremendously acknowledging of you.

ALICIA: Thank you so much. All right. Take care.

ELIAS: In wondrous lovingness to you, my dear friend—

ALICIA: Thank you

ELIAS: — as always. Until our next meeting—


ELIAS: — au revoir.

ALICIA: Okay. Good-bye.

(Elias departs after 59 minutes)